The Two Faces of Christianity

It’s a common dilemma among gay men.  As we grow up and discover our true sexuality, we also find conflict with the church we were raised in.   The same people who taught us to "love and forgive" are now condemning us for who we are.  Ultimately we’re left feeling ostracized and bitter towards the religion that was once an important part of us.

Never has the rift between gays and the church been more evident than in the past few elections.  In the 90’s we made great strides toward equality and acceptance only to face a backlash beginning with the election of George W. Bush.  Upon gaining a receptive ear as the new Commander in Chief, members of the extreme religious right began to push their conservative agenda.  In exchange for their new political sway, they preached against things like gay marriage so their congregations would reelect Bush and other officials who campaigned as a defender of "family values." 

It was during this dark period in which it seemed everyday brought a new story of an attack on gay rights that many of us developed a sharp disdain and even loathing towards organized religion of any sort.  Christian groups like "Focus on the Family" wage war with the GLBT community constantly.  We’ve become extremely defensive against any talk of religion since it has been used so many times in the past to hurt us.  It’s gotten so bad that I tend to immediately dismiss anyone who tells me they are a Christian as a radical right wingnut.

Left Behind: Eternal ForcesI started out to write this post about yet another affront to our community in the form of a video game.  As many of you already know as it’s been in the news for some time now, a Christian game studio has released "Left Behind: Eternal Forces," a video game based on the "Left Behind" books.  Although rated "T" for "Teen," game players are tasked with the conversion or even killing of those who do not adhere to a specific interpretation of Christianity – including Muslims, Catholics, Jews… and homosexuals.

More specifically, the game:

  • involves teenagers in killing non-Christians and Christians who do not convert to your particular form of Christianity (Source: LBET Game Tutorial and game play);
  • teaches teenagers that those “seeking peace for all mankind” are with the forces of the Antichrist (Source: Left Behind Games Website FAQs;
  • teaches teens that “activists” are “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” warning teens to particularly beware of them (Source: LBET Game Manual, p. 45);
  • teaches teenagers that most musicians are “singing the praises of the antichrist” and that “rock stars” and “pop stars” make “formidable spiritual opponents” (Source: LBET Game Manual, p. 44);
  • teaches teens that humanitarian aid workers who are not Christian, including medics, nurses, and doctors, have “had the veil of the antichrist’s deceit pulled over their eyes” and are therefore part of the enemy forces who may be killed (Source: LBET Game Manual, p. 41)

Several concerned groups have called for Wal-Mart, the nation’s number one video game seller, to pull the divisive game from their shelves.  You can sign one such petition online here.  My Jewish readers can also sign a petition from the Jewish community here.  It will be interesting to see Wal-Mart’s reaction as one of the reasons the AFA ended their boycott of Wal-Mart was that the company "had agreed to stay away from controversial causes."  Is it controversial only when gays and lesbians are involved?

Although I am not particularly religious today, I grew up in a house where our church played a large part in my life, so I can not even begin to tell you how much this game sickens me.  Where is the Christianity that I learned as a child, the one that teaches of love and tolerance?   What is this new radical Christianity that is being promoted where those who don’t believe exactly what you do are worthy of killing? 

two facesAs I said earlier, this post was originally going to be about how the Christian church today had been taken over by extremists and now preached only hate.  In my mind, organized religion was beyond redemption.  Then, while researching more facts about the game online to write this article, I ran across one of the groups opposing it called CrossWalk America.

According to their website, CrossWalk America is "part of an emerging Christian movement – one that joyously embraces the love of God, neighbor and self (Jesus’ core values)."  Their history states that in 1998, a group of Christian clergy gathered in a Phoenix coffeehouse, concerned about the increasing marginalization of moderate and progressive voices within the public sphere of Christianity. These clergy came from several traditionally “mainline” denominations – United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, and Lutheran. The ministers’ original vision was to speak on a wide variety of topics, offering an alternative voice to that of radical fundamentalism. They also felt it would be important to include laypeople in their membership. However, at the time, there was so much controversy over gay and lesbian issues, largely propagated by Christian ministers, they decided to focus on this single set of issues for the time being, and to do so specifically as Christian clergy.

What?!?  Clergy taking up the cause of gay and lesbian issues?  I read on.  Today CrossWalk America says that they stand for :

  • openness to other faiths
  • care for the earth and its ecosystems
  • valuing artistic expression in all its forms
  • authentic inclusiveness of all people – including God’s lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender (lgbt) community
  • opposing the commingling of Church and State
  • promoting the values of rest and recreation, prayer and reflection
  • embracing both faith and science in the pursuit of truth

Clergy for Justice"Wait a second," I thought to myself, "these are my values… or at least the ones I strive for."  Could it be that there were still Christians out there that believed in the teachings I had learned in my youth?  In reading through their website I confirmed that yes, there are in fact compassionate Christians still around today, and CrossWalk America aren’t the only ones.  Although they had been silent way too long, the people of the church are finally raising a voice against the radical fundamentalists who hijacked their religion.

Yes, there are two faces to modern Christianity today.  Terrible things have been done by people claiming to be doing the work of Christ, but I think we need to remember that there are those out there who still believe in Jesus’ core values of love and forgiveness.  Whether we choose religion in our own lives or not, the GLBT community needs to encourage and support these progressive Christian groups in the fight to take back their religion.  It is the only we will every heal the rift between us.

P.S.  I was shocked to see that CrossWalk America started in Phoenix where I live.  I had always considered this a red state, but I’m beginning to see blue shining through.

UPDATE 12/16/06 at 12:35am: 

I’ve been away from the computer tonight for awhile.  Wow!  The discussion has really taken off.  I want to thank you all for your comments regardless of which viewpoint or side you took.  Having an open and civil debate about the issues that face us helps restore my faith in our ability to reach common ground someday.

I’m still reading all the comments, so please forgive me if I haven’t responded to your specific comment or question.  I’ll probably get back to you directly via e-mail.

119 Responses to The Two Faces of Christianity

  1. Jamie says:

    Great, great post, Scott. And thanks for the info on CrossWalk America. I know some people that will be very pleased to know about this. I’m one of them!

  2. jester says:

    Excellent post. I don’t know if you saw my post, “Article on Gays and Christianity” last month, but there’s a link there to one of the best missives I’ve read in a long time. It was written by a Baptist minister who likens the church’s refusal to acknowledge that homosexuality is not an issue of morality but of biology to their treatment of Galileo. You should check it out.

    I too, was raised in a religious household. Pentecostal. That’s right.. talking in tongues and dancing and jumping pews. I left the church before I really dealt with coming out, mostly because I was too logical and science-oriented to have faith. Religions fascinate me in a clinical way.

    I am scared for our future if the loud minority of right wing nutjobs continue getting their way. The existence of this Phoenix based group gives me some hope that we’ll be all right.

  3. Joy says:

    Oh Please.This game is a game about what is going to happen after the rapture when christians will have to fight for their lives.In the game they either kill someone who is trying to kill them or they die.Get over it.I am a christian and I firmly believe that homosexuality is wrong.I have nothing against people who are gay that is between you and God and you will eventually be judged by him.You should not judge christians either just because they dont agree with your way of life. You whine and moan about everyone criticizing you , when you are doing the exactly same thing to them. Maybe you should practice what you preach. What you dont seem to understand is that one of the main purposes of being a christian is to spread the word of God. When someone tries to tell you that Homosexuality is wrong they are not judging you as a person, but doing their duty as a christian and trying to let you see the might so that you might be saved. You are right-some people who call themself christians spread hate for people different for themselves, but you need not worry. those people are in the same place non christians are in Gods book.

  4. Jon says:

    SO very well said, Scott.

    Joy, I challenge you to re-read your post as if Jesus himself had written it and ask yourself if you find anything wrong with it: you speak nonchalantly of a game that children are allowed to play that allows them to “kill” anyone with whom they disagree. Is this the message of Jesus?

    Then you go on to say that homosexuality is wrong and that we “will evetually be judged by [God].” Though your words are carefully chosen, the intent is clear — you are indeed judging us, but asking us not to judge you (Christians).

    You continue to defend the judging of gays and lesbians by saying that it is only your “duty” to do so. Yet Jesus himself said not a single word about homosexuality… not one. And if Jesus is your example of what to do and say, you might want to focus your efforst on the things he actually preached: love, forgiveness, compassion and turning the other cheek… instead of callously telling people to “get over it.”

    So before you exalt yourself any higher, please take a moment to point the judging finger back at yourself and ask if your post could have been written by Jesus. If not, you may want to take then beam out of your own eye and do some repenting yourself.

  5. bonnie says:

    “This game is a game about what is going to happen after the rapture when christians will have to fight for their lives.In the game they either kill someone who is trying to kill them or they die.Get over it.”

    Wow. What I can’t quite figure out is where all that “love thy neighbor” business that all my Sunday-school teachers were so het-up about fits in with all this killing business. What if your neighbor is gay? What if your neighbor is a Muslim? I don’t remember any qualifier saying “Love thy neighbor, unless they happen to be _______”.

    Oh well. What do I know.

    I’m glad to read about this Clergy for Justice. Of COURSE there are still non-hateful Christians out there – it’s just that the mean ones have been so loud, and you hear so much more about them in the press.

    Suspect that’s got a lot to do with the fact that stories about extremists are a lot more attention-getting (and paper-selling) than stories about moderates.

    Well, I am happy to see the moderates working to get attention.

  6. Scott says:


    I did read that article you link to. Very interesting! Thanks for sharing it.

  7. M@ says:

    Phenomenal post!

    I was raised as a “Born Again Christian” and am dealing with the dark end of Christianity – where it judges and hates under the guise of acceptance and love. But yes, there are two faces to it.

    Religion is not evil. Extremism is evil – whether it’s religious, political or otherwise. The understanding that “my way is not everyone’s way” is crucial to navigating live and the world around us.

    But religious extremism naturally takes on a very militant stance – where EVERYONE must believe what they believe.

    What gets me about this game – and about how christian extremists act is that they honestly DON’T SEE that they are being EXACTLY LIKE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS, just with different proper nouns.

    In their attempt to save the world, they will inevitably (IMHO) bring about it’s downfall.

  8. There are gay-affirming churches out there (Revolution is a good example I’ve been listening to their podcasts and their interpretation of theology sounds a lot more grounded in reality than most evangelicals i’ve ever heard.

  9. bonnie says:

    Yes yes yes to M@’s comment. I hadn’t picked the word “extremist” randomly in my comment. Need to keep this quick, but wanted to recommend a book on the topic of the rise of fundamentalism in 3 major world religions — Islam, Judaism & Christianity — Karen Armstrong’s The Battle for God (we’ll see if that link works…) .

  10. Howard says:

    So many things to say. Hmmm, first, thank you, Scott. This is an excellent post. Thank you for posting this information.

    Joy said: “I am a christian and I firmly believe that homosexuality is wrong.I have nothing against people who are gay that is between you and God and you will eventually be judged by him.”

    Do you not see the inherent contradiction in these two sentences? I honestly don’t begrudge you your beliefs, but take the time to read what you wrote and really think about it.

    Practice what we preach? So we should kill in the name of gay? That doesn’t sound very nice. (Ooo, cheap shot)

    And I think it’s funny that I ‘forgot’ that the main reason for Christianity is the shove my personal beliefs down everyone else’s throat. Oh, that’s right. History does show Christianity attempting to sweep away anything that is consider threatening with a few pockets of groups actually practicing the ideals Christ taught. C’mon, if Christ were alive today, he’d be ripped apart for being a liberal, free-thinking hippie.

    And you are saying that all my gay, Jewish, Muslim and Catholic friends are going to burn in the same hell as those Christians who us Christianity to further themselves? Wow. By the way, I find it funny that the game seems to think that Catholics, which is considered to be a Christian religion, is included in the conversation process of the game. I guess growing up Mormon is now a double whammy against me?

    I also notice that the game is on God’s chosen platform, Microsoft Windows. (He takes another cheap shot!)

    In all seriousness, here’s what I believe which I will share with you in a non-threatening manner — it is simply information and opinion. Religion and faith are extremely personal and individual things. Let’s just all live with our own beliefs and share what we believe without all the ‘burning in eternal damnation’ condemnations.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go fight off a group of teenagers trying to kill me for “seeking peace for all mankind” with my hot curling irons numchucks and floral arrangement Ch’iang.

    Happy Presents Days!

  11. finny says:

    I had always considered this a red state, but I’m beginning to see blue shining through……

    The message that Jesus spoke was out of love and had nothing to do with any political agenda. Today we need boxes to put our religious ideas in so that they make sense to us. Jesus spoke outside of politics, we need to try and comprehend a love that is larger than our earthly constructions.

    God loves the blue just as much as the red, and even the indepentents.

  12. Allen says:

    Your article is very interesting. You talk about “religion” and “Christianity.” There is a big difference. Anybody can have religion, but not everyone is a Christian. A Christian has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior, repented of his sins, confessed his name before men and has been baptized for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38)
    The Bible speaks a great deal about homosexuality. One such place is I Cor. 6:9-10; “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingom of God: Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” If you don’t believe the Bible, you can believe anything!

  13. Jim Bob says:

    There are two types of Christians:

    1. Those who call themselves Christians and live however they like to live and demand that everyone else conform to their beliefs regardless of whether or not they involve murder, oppression, vast accumulation of fortunes at the expense of others, alienation of anyone who does not believe or think as they do, bring war against people who have done nothing to them, etc.
    2. Those who live and follow the teachings of Christ.

    I think that the first group have nothing to do with Christ. They use the moniker to further their own interests.

    The second group are centered on the teachings of Christ which have nothing to do with money, power, oppression, greed, alienation of others, etc.

    The first group would like to have the 10 commandments posted everywhere and crucify anyone who doesn’t like it.

    The second group would like to see the beatitudes being lived.

  14. al says:

    Who made this program? Was it Christians or somebody tring to make a fast buck. I don’t know anything about this game, but it sounds like all the other games out there.
    The AFA warned people not to buy this game. If they boycotted all the stores that sold these kinds of games, they would have no place to shop.

  15. Bob says:

    A couple things this made me think about. I believe in all of the values that you outlined for CrossWalk America. I am also a Conservative Republican. As Finny wrote, religion and politics do not necessarily go hand in hand. Do not think every conservative wants to take rights away from lgbt. Also, I do not know the complete details of this game, but from their website, it seems to indicate that players fight others only upon being attacked. I don’t think a game that is as bad as you make it out to sound would be a popular upcoming release(at least I hope not).

  16. Jack says:

    This had nothing to do about religion! It was about the gay life style that some individuals have chosen. If they want to find the religion of their chldhoods they must revert to the actions of their childhoods. One that had the family as one with a Mom (female) and a Dad (male).
    Those that really know the Bible know that it condems homosexuality. As a result there is no conflict except for those that have chosen the non-normal lifestyle.. You want to resolve the conflict denounce your gay life style and return to the one that was started in the creation.

  17. Bar Kochba says:

    Jesus did not speak out of love. Jesus curse a fig tree and called non-Jews dogs. A god who can be killed by men is no god at all. Jesus hated the Romans and wanted them out of his land. The Romans were occupiers. If you think faith in a 1st century Jewish rebel against the Romans is going to save you, you are an idiot.

  18. janice flushing says:

    Howard, I don’t see how joys comment “I am a christian and I firmly believe that homosexuality is wrong.I have nothing against people who are gay that is between you and God and you will eventually be judged by him.”
    ” contradicts itself. Maybe if he added “……judged by him, just as I will be” you’d understand his point of view a little better. Just agree to disagree…why doesn’t this seem to be applicable anymore.

  19. finny says:

    Bar Kochba:

    God Is Love


    I think that is one of those idea’s that is just way over our heads. Just look around and see how well humans do with “love”, christians included.

    If God is not going to save you or I , then who or what is.

  20. Howard says:


    You really don’t? Honestly?

    She firmly believes that homosexuality is wrong. And then she says that she has nothing against gay people. It certainly seems contradictory to me. It’s the same as people who say: “I don’t have anything against [insert minority here]. I have friends who are [insert minority here].”

    ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty n.

    Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

    Isn’t that the most basic and often narrow-minded definition of gay people?

    homosexuality is wrong ≠ nothing against gay people

    It seems to me that through her beliefs she actually does have something wrong with gays. She believes they are wrong to love someone of the same gender based on her faith.

    I ask one more question: why would anyone who wants to practice the teachings of Christ not want more love in the world? There is too little as there is now. But then that question has been asked for thousands of years and I doubt we will ever get an answer.

    And by commenting on Scott’s blog, am I agreeing to disagree by voicing my disagreement in an open, adult manner. I believe that is why many people leave their comments section open — an exchange of ideas.

    I didn’t say stop believing what you do, all I asked was that she look at what she wrote and think about it. That’s all. What Joy does is completely up to her.

  21. Leonard says:

    wow, been a bit since I’ve checked in to the blog…annnnd now I’ll be moving on. LOL
    Great post Scott, you got some people thinking and that’s really what communication is all about. ;-) peace

  22. The Truth Hurts says:

    The truth is that according to God’s written word Homosexuality is sin and Homosexuals are sinners. The majority of the born again community does love sinners as Jesus did and does but he also judges sin and the sinner. The problem today is we have too many voices trying to persuade us when the only voice we need to be listening to is God’s and you will find his clear voice spoken in his book called the Bible. There is a judgement coming for all who refuse to hear his voice saying “repent” and be “converted”. The time is getting very short and we need to stop worrying about our agenda’s and start worrying about our destiny. It’s either Heaven or Hell and they both last a very long time.

  23. Bruce Ramsey says:

    I really don’t think your basic Christian hates gays. I mean, I’m a Christian and I don’t hates gays. As a matter of fact, I think you can be gay and be a Christian, like you can be a horney straight person and be a Christian. But, either gay or straight, you can’t practice your sex outside marriage. So, if I were a GAY Christian, I’m sure I’d have gay thoughts, but, I’d try to make an effort to not indulge in such behavior. The Bible says, “God chasens those whom He loves”, meaning, I’d probably get HIV if I continued in something that the Bible clearly says, is an abomination. If I were gay, I’d remain alone, hoping for a time where I’d be transformed into whatever being God wanted me. Hey, for the gay guys who might be reading this, if worse comes to worse, there is always masterbation, which the Bible seems silent on.

  24. para_dimz says:

    Sodom and Gommorah: God’s view on tolerance. Easy lesson.
    Judgement is not the same thing as discernment and way too many have an inkling difference or how both words are used and applied in the Christian life. We all discern. Very, very few have the power to judge.
    The writer speaks of being forgiven. For what if homosexuality is not sin?
    Read the Old Testament and Revelation then tell me about the style of God’s love. Plainly, if you aren’t with Him and His ways you are in one heap of trouble.
    Forgiveness is predicated by turning away. No no will be forgiven who refuses to turn away. If you have turned, you aren’t going the same way as before, you’ve changed direction.
    God tells us to shake even the dust off of our feet from the homes and towns those who refuse to heed his call to His kind of forgiveness. He would have nothing to do with them.
    He plainly says that in the end time many will be crying out, Lord, Lord save us. And He plainly says that He will tell them that He never knew them.
    The “Game” if I may use that phrase, is not ours. It’s His. You want to play, they are His rules. Mess up reading the rulebook. Well, I’ll leave that for you to judge. I mean, what happens if you think you have 4 strikes coming and you take a cut at a bad pitch that is your third? You get to do a do-over?

  25. sprite says:

    The gay community can rant and rail as much as they want against “fundamentalist Christians” and their viewpoint, but it doesn’t change the fact that 1) ALL people will be judged by God at the end 2) The BIBLE and God speak against homosexuality, and Christians/true believers follow the leadership of God out of love and respect for who He is and the power that He has. 3)Christians of today didn’t write the Bible, God did, and therefore the beef that gays have with Christians is really against what God has to say about it. 4) There are Christian jerks as well as every other kind of jerk 5)If the gay community would actually read the WHOLE Bible, instead of quoting all the parts about how God is love and would never treat anyone like this, etc., to make it fit their view of life and the world, you would find out that God is not just love. He is justice, mercy, relational, and he will judge all. You can like it or dislike it, but it doesn’t change the truth. The Bible doesn’t say homosexuality is okay. It calls it sin, and sin separates us from God. 6) Gays who complain about Christians trying to cram their beliefs down peoples’ throats obviously don’t consider the gay people who are aggressively, persistently and often rabidly cramming their agenda down everyone else’s throats in the political arena, the educational arena and every other public arena, so that we all start to become desensitized and start to “believe”. But then they violently and loudly complain when someone doesn’t agree with their “lifestyle”. What exactly is the difference here that makes the gay cramming okay?
    The very respect gays want to demand from everyone is the very respect they refuse to give Christians, or those who disagree with their lifestyle. We are ALL in need of a Savior.
    And by the way, Bar K, Jesus didn’t hate Romans. Read the whole fig tree story. And if you don’t believe in the resurrection, I guess you could say it would be pretty disheartening to serve a ‘dead’ God. However, that isn’t the story. He is alive and well, watching the world he created love him or hate him.

  26. psychologistmom says:

    to Allen and the others–while “the Bible” may say this or that about many different things, it had many different contributing authors.

    In the old testament, Leviticus calls man-on-man and woman-on-beast an “abomination”. But so are pork & shellfish. Leviticus also forbids weaving cloth from 2 or more fibers (Lev 19-19) and it puts menstruating women in the same category as lepers. In the 21st century, some of these rules are downright silly (ie no fiber blends) and some are deeply offensive (ie menstruation=unclean).

    The old testament is the history and law of the ancient Jews. While it may be interesting historically to xians, it is no more binding on an xian than an American is ruled by the Magna Carta or the decrees of Parliament. Logically, a xian would follow the doctrines set down by Jesus of Nazareth.


    As for the so-called apostle Paul, he was a sex-hating woman-hating ideologue who appeared many years after Jesus’ death. He wasn’t Jesus. He wasn’t chosen by Jesus to lead the church–Peter was. Paul wasn’t fit to lick Jesus’ dirty sandals. Paul’s writings don’t belong on the same level as the gospels.

    But even so, Paul didn’t say a THING about homosexuality. THERE WAS NO WORD IN ANCIENT GREEK FOR HOMOSEXUALITY. That’s why throughout history it was refered to as “the love that had no name”.

    The Greek word in the original text refers to people who have sex with animals. It was first translated to “sodomite” and then later to “homosexual”. In fact the word “homosexual” didn’t come into use until Sigmund Freud and early psychoanalysis.

    This information came from an ordained Methodist minister and a graduate of Yale Divinity School, who actually READ the New Testament in the original Greek.

  27. Bruce Ramsey says:

    I think one of the reasons why God is against homosexuality, is due to the reality of the gay life-style. God is against idolatry, and, in the gay world, there seems to be a LOT of value placed on the matterial, such as, young, good-looking guys. WHEN you place such high importance on the things that are transitory, you’re in for disappointment, God or NO God. But, this is not only a warning to gays, but ANYone who doesn’t have God as number one in their life. If you have anything else over God, you will be a sad person, because you can’t take it with you. For you gay guys out there, are you familiar with the play “The Madness of Lady Bright”? Or, “A Death In Venice”? The two works of fiction seem to reflect aging gay reality that make Christianity shine with eternal hope.

  28. David says:

    I was all set to exult and give a big “I told you so” at Scott’s discovery that indeed there is a growing religious community that truly embraces the meaning of “God is Love.” But then all these commentors spoiled my happiness.

    It’s amazing how some people have turned a post about a violent video game into an opportunity to denounce others who have a different faith than theirs.

    I am gob-smacked by Bruce Ramsay’s assertion that if he were gay and acted on his impulses he would probably get HIV. I guess Bruce has never heard about condoms. And his comment that sex is only acceptable inside a marriage once again shows the hypocrisy of some, since the hardline religious groups are the once most against granting gays the right to marry. You say we should only have intercourse within the framework of marriage but then refuse to allow us to marry who we choose.

    Bruce, yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife?

  29. Diane says:

    This article seems to have been written to condemn this video game and affirm gay issues. I think the video is a bit confusing to those who are do not have any understanding of post-tribulation (rapture of faithful Christians) according to the Bible. Whether or not you agree with the Bible, there is plenty of hateful, violent video games out there that don’t get nearly the amount of attention this one seems to have received. Another note: judging is bad because WE”RE not qualified, but God is. Therefore, judging what we THINK is right is equally incorrect. The only basis to live our life is God’s Word, not public opinion.

  30. finny says:

    This is my commandment, that you love one another.

    profound words

    this forum is sounding like a bunch of whiney children…….I’M RIGHT!!……NO!……I’M Right, well you know what, you are all wrong to a certain degree. No human can fully understand GOD, no matter how much of the bible they have digested….knowledge puffs up.

    God’s love is relational, not systematic. Not some stupid loop hole “the bible dosen’t say anything about masterbation”,(that’s the stupidest thing I’ve read all day) well what does the bible say about a pure and holy mind.

    When people stop being myopic and small minded then we can actually begin a dialouge, not just defending our “cause” but actually listen to the other person.

    Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

  31. janice says:

    read this article:

    then tell me that I have to agree with someone I might like/love. People can’t disagree any more without being accused of hating the person/people they disagree with. shame….

  32. janice says:

    “It seems to me that through her beliefs she actually does have something wrong with gays. She believes they are wrong to love someone of the same gender based on her faith.”
    I did not say or believe that people of the same gender can’t love each other. For me, thinking logically without the trappings of emotions, I see 2 people of the same gender who pass that line into ‘trying to couple’ or ‘making love’ comparable to someone trying to smash together 2 puzzle pieces that don’t fit. My opinion is less than 30% faith based. have a good weekend!

  33. Virgil says:

    When i read things like Joy in #3 write: “Oh Please. This game is a game about what is going to happen after the rapture when christians will have to fight for their lives. In the game they either kill someone who is trying to kill them or they die.” I wonder if she knows that the ‘Rapture’ is not found in the Bible. I wonder if christians like that every read: “He who lives by the sword will surely die by the swoard”? These people do not deserve to be called Christian in my mind they deserve the small ‘c’ form only.

    I propose a new game called “Making Permanent Friends for Jesus”. In the game, people kill evangelical christians so that they can be martyrs for Jesus. After all using the logic of kill or be killed, some people will have to prepare ahead of time to kill chritians in the post-rapture world. LOL. Get real – hate is not a value that Jesus taught.

  34. Just wondering says:

    One thing to keep in mind: ALL the various “do nots” that have been written into the Bible were written with ONE purpose ONLY. That was to insure the steady increase of the flock that sustained, supported and paid for the Church and served to increase the power and influence of its clergy. Homosexuality and birth control would lower the birth rate and poor health (hence “fish on Fridays”) would cause early death – both of which reduced the number of adherents. All religions have similar codified rules, Judaism has Kosher to protect against food poisoning, Islam has similar rules. Shellfish and undercooked pork can be lethal! When you had an illiterate population in olden days, it was more effective to make rules that were “given by the Deity” that were absolute than to explaine the whys and wherefores. Usually the religious leaders didn’t know either, they just kenw of cause and effect.

  35. Ed says:

    Ah, so much let their be peace on Earth… haha!

    Been reading a book talking a lot about different religions and read this part today… given some of the above, it seemed appropriate enough to share:

    “It is ok to say you believe your religion is true, even truer than other faiths, but not that you are in possession in this life of a hundred percent of the truth… if you believe you know all there is to know, then you’ll think of others as less holy, less worthy, less deserving of respect. Most religions teach a lot of the same thing — a kind of spiritual integrity that is good for any society. We’d be a lot better off with an honest dialogue about our differences provided every ‘fesses up about not knowing the absolute truth.”

  36. Jon says:

    As there are so many posts on this site reminding us to follow God’s word, I thought I would re-post a letter sent to Dr. Laura in response to her objections to homosexuality baseb on what the Bible has to say about it. Enjoy!

    Dear Dr. Laura,

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

    a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

    g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

    i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

    Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

    Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

  37. JASON DERR says:

    Great article! Please be aware that not all Christans are fundies. I am a seminary student in Vancouver, BC (canada) where im one of a handful of straight students! Thats right most of my fellow students – most of whom want to be priests due to a deep spiritual call – are openly gay and lesbian people ( Also be aware that in addition to mainline churches trying to find ways to be more inclussive their is an entire denomination started by and for the spiritual needs of Gay and Lesbian Christians called the Metropolitian Community Church –

  38. tom says:

    “Last Days”

    comments on Christians against gays is misunderstood herein! God did not create males to have sex with males. If you recall he took out a rib from adam and created eve, not steve!! The creator created women to be with a man, why? to have sex as an expresstion of love and give birth to populate the earth. The equipment you have was created for that purpose only!!!

    “The Bible” Gods inspired word explicitly says that a man is not to lay down with a man….. This is a SIN periond. and you will not inherit the kingdom of God. God does not hate the sinner only the Sin and you must repent, turn away from this abomanation!!! and by the way This is God talking and Christians are only the messingers. Read the Bible, but remember you will never get it unless you realize who Jesus Christ is and truly repent in your heart and ask Him to forgive you of all your sins then accept Him as your personal Savior. I challenge you all to just read the Bible and search in your sole for the truth and the truth will set you free! God Bless you all In His Name Thomas Seeker of Truth!!!

  39. Scott says:

    I’m a born again Christian and do also believe what the Bible says. Homosexuality is wrong! I didn’t say it. God said it. Anyone that claims to be a minister of Jesus Christ and then proudly commits what the Bible says is a sin, is being foolish and will have God to deal with on judgement day. There is only one face of Christianity, the one that preaches the Bible. Any thing else has nothing to do with Christianity. As far as ‘love thy neighbor’ goes, that is right. Though homosexuality is wrong, I treat homosexuals the same way I try to treat everyone, with honor, kindness and respect. I am not judging, I’m simply telling you what the Bible says.

  40. Vasu Murti says:

    It’s my contention that we really live in a secular society; one in which people merely pay lip service to religious ideals. Most Christians today aren’t following Jesus—most Christians aren’t even following Paul!

    Paul taught his followers to bless their persecutors and not curse them (Romans 12:14), to care for their enemies by providing them with food and drink (12:20), and to pay their taxes and obey all earthly governments (13:1-7). He mentioned giving all his belongings to feed the hungry (I Corinthians 13:3), and taught giving to the person in need (Ephesians 4:28). He told his followers it was wrong to take their conflicts before non-Christian courts rather than before the saints. (I Corinthians 6:1)

    Paul taught that “it is good for a man not to touch a woman,” i.e., it is best to be celibate, but because of prevailing immoralities, marriage is acceptable. Divorce, however, is not permissible, except in the case of an unbeliever demanding separation. (I Corinthians 7)

    Paul repeatedly attacked sexual immorality (I Corinthians 6:15,18); “This is God’s will — your sanctification, that you keep yourselves from sexual immorality, that each of you learn how to take his own wife in purity and honor, not in lustful passion like the gentiles who have no knowledge of God.” ( I Thessalonians 4:3-5)

    Paul told his followers not to associate with sexually immoral people (I Corinthians 5:9-12). He condemned homosexuality (Romans 1:24-27) and incest (I Corinthians 5:1). He taught that profligates, idolaters, adulterers and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. (I Corinthians 6:9-10)

    Paul condemned wickedness, immorality, depravity, greed, envy, murder, quarreling, deceit, malignity, gossip, slander, insolence, pride (Romans 1:29-3), drunkenness, carousing, debauchery, jealousy (Romans 13:13), sensuality, magic arts, animosities, bad temper, selfishness, dissensions, envy (Galatians 5:19-21); greediness (Ephesians 4:19; Colossians 3:5), foul speech, anger, clamor, abusive language, malice (Ephesians 4:29-32), dishonesty (Colossians 3:13), materialism (I Timothy 6:6-11), conceit, avarice, boasting and treachery (II Timothy 3:2-4)

    Paul told the gentiles to train themselves for godliness, to practice self control and lead upright, godly lives (Galatians 5:23; I Timothy 4:7; II Timothy 1:7; Titus 2:11-12). He instructed them to ALWAYS pray constantly (I Thessalonians 5:17)

    Paul praised love, joy, peace, kindness, generosity, fidelity and gentleness (Galatians 5:22-23). He told his followers to conduct themselves with humility and gentleness (Ephesians 4:2), to speak to one another in psalms and hymns; to sing heartily and make music to the Lord (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16).

    Paul wrote further that women should cover their heads while worshipping and that long hair on males is dishonorable. (I Corinthians 11:5-14). According to Paul, Christian women are to dress modestly and prudently, and are not to be adorned with braided hair, gold or pearls or expensive clothes. (I Timothy 2:9)

    My friend Hilton Alligood, an agnostic, said, “I agree with you. They (Christians) are hypocrites. They enjoy sex outside of marriage, but they won’t accept gays.” My problem really isn’t with Christians not being able to follow Jesus or Paul, but with the hypocrisy of going around saying, “I believe!” and then ignoring everything else their religion dictates when it suits them. Why not just be secular, like everyone else?

    Again, it’s my contention that we really live in a secular society; one in which people just pay lip service to religious ideals.

  41. Glenn says:

    I really liked the balance and hopefulness of your post, then I began to read the comments. I really wish that people that read the bible literally would apply it literally, including the new testament. I want to see her tithe pre-tax, pre-expenses (1 Corinthians 16:1-3) ten percent (or risk being struck dead Acts 5:1-10), never get divorced (Sermon on the Mount), never pray with her hair uncovered (1 Corinthians 11:5-15). I chose New Testament verses to cherry-pick verses the way they do, but get past the gotcha of using old testament stuff, otherwise she is chattel, slaves are allowed, and she had better never have sex during her period.

    Interpretations are just that. Interpretations. Until 1967, her verse also included masturbation, and it was amended under general agreement, as otherwise EVERY BOY IN HISTORY was going to hell.

    Good link:

  42. Heathen says:

    Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated – Romans 9:13

    God loves everyone, does he? The bible also says that he knew us before we were even born. Does that mean that he knew he would hate Esau and favor Jacob (a sneaky liar that would trick his own father and steal from his brother) before he was even born? Maybe Esau was a homosexual?

  43. HDW says:

    “Everybody’s journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality.”
    James A. Baldwin

  44. Craig says:

    Wow Scott – what a hornets nest you’ve stirred up! Way to go.
    I’ll just add my 2 cents. I, too, was raised evangelical christian, and often got into LOTS of trouble because I had lots of questions which inevitably let to the most certain answer of “Because God says so in the Bible,” to which I replyed “Why?”
    As is noticed by the comments on this post, the B-I-B-L-E is the basis and the source of all this nonsense. I have a simple request for all the people who have responded here today with “…it says so in the Bible!” I’d like you to sit down with a piece of paper and a pencil and write down in vivid detail a conversation that you had 30 years ago, with no puctuation, in a language that no one speaks any more. Example; what am I saying here = godisnowhere = Did I say God is now here, or God is nowhere? THIS is how the bible was written.
    Secondly Christianity is an amalgamation of MANY early religions like Zorastronism, Mithraism, Ancient Judiaism and even Paganism. Most of these religions had LOGICAL rules for survival and propogation of the religion, from which is these archaic laws come. Worship no god before me = not original, Covet not thy neighbors wife = not original, all this stuff already existed. Jesus was the one who came and said “LOVE.”
    Now you can either choose to blindly accept all that the bible says, or not. From my perspective there has been more pain, death, destruction and deceit in the name of God that anything else.
    So next time you say “but, but, but, it says so in the Bible!” Think about that!

    Also you might check out this wonderful commentary on CNN by Jay Bakker.

  45. Chris says:

    As I see it, the 2 faces of Christianity you spoke of are probably the 2 ends of a continuum. Since being a Christian involves daily surrender to the will of God over your own will and desires, the majority of Christians just pick the beliefs or values that they are comfortable with and chuck the ones that involve their own “pet” sins or that involve going against the “majority”.
    According to Bible prophecy, we are living in the”end time”, the period right before Christ’s return. The Bible speaks of how people in general will behave and specifically that most Christians will be “fence straddlers” &”lukewarm” (compromised) –“having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof.” Something of that sort. In other words, they look and act like they (and the leaders they follow and listen to) are Christians by what they do — who they condemn and who they condone, but deny the power of God — the indwelling of His Spirit, which should be their moral compass and make them closer and closer, day-by-day, into the image of Christ. Instead they are these empty shells and are dead inside (and unregenerated). So they cling to the agenda that these leaders feed them and with throwing a little money in the plate and their spotty attendance at church, they think that their name on the church books is their ticket to heaven. But these same deluded folks are in need of a Savior, just like you and I. There is a false, but there is also a true among Christians. You will have to ask God to help you to find out what the true is and where the true Christians are. Go right to the Book and read for yourself. Pray for Him to guide you.
    You won’t find the true on the TV on Sunday, they’re not in the streets at your Pride parade with “God hates Fags” signs. They’re driving the van that transports the HIV positive folks to the clinic and back, they’re raising the addicts’ baby after mother has died, they’re giving free dental care on his/her off day at the homeless shelter, they’re teaching people to read, they’re visiting guys in prison, they’re doing what Jesus would be doing if He were here. They’re there, but they are rare, sad to say.
    My advise to you, as a Christian, as a sinner( and occasional right-wing nutjob), and as a brother, is to not look at people for your example, as people will always fall short and disappoint you. Go directly to God and pour your heart out to Him as to a friend. Tell Him your wants and needs, your joys and sorrows….even about those not so lovely of His children. Ask Him into your heart. He still wants you, He still seeks after you, He still loves you.

  46. tom says:

    Secular Society!!!

    Good job quoting scripture Vasu Murti!” Satan could quote scripture as well”

    I believe your comments about professed Christians falling away from the truth is valet, except that just because you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior does not mean you will never sin again. Once you have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior you will be tempted, the difference is that you can go to the Farther and repent!!!

    Now that is true freedom not religion ” mans attempt to get to God.” The true secular socity has not accepted Jesus as their personal savior, as a Christian Iam forgiven just by beliving Jesus die for me on the cross, all sins i commented in the past and will commit in the future are forgiven.

    Resting on the scripture that says ” He who began a good work in me shall be faithful to complete it in me”. Christians are a work in progress.If you truly want freedom read John 3:16 and repent in your heart. Do not just quote scripture, live it in your heart and share Jesus with everyone including homosexduals whom God loves like any other sinner. he does not wish any one to parish but to have eternal life. In His love, Thomas

  47. steve says:

    Thank you Chris. That was very well said.

  48. bonnie says:


    would the honorable Mr. O-Rama say that the fervor-o-meter on this one is approaching the readings approached by the infamous Flamefest of the Carols?

  49. Tony says:

    Yikes… well I’m not going to hop into the debate, but I did want to comment that it’s always a little weird to see your own current state in life written about as someone else’s past… that point of starting to become incredibly bitter against the religion that meant so much to you. For me, now, going to mass every weekend has become a very painful experience where I used to enjoy it and feel refreshed after going to mass.

    And that game… geeze. It scares and horrifies me.

    Okay… now I’m all depressed and need to go examine Eye Candy Monday again. ;) *shuffles off*

  50. John Bryans Fontaine says:

    Thirty years ago I was a teen-ager, too. And though I was and remain strait, we were and are condemned by the church because we wanted to and did have sex outside of marriage.

    Secondly, as to ‘Left Behind: Eternal Forces’ and the fact that Walmart sells it, it astounds me that you could worry about an issue this minor in the face of Walmart’s continuing abuse and iron-fisted approach over it’s workers. Walmart won’t allow it’s workers to form Unions, nor pay them a living wage and locks them in at night, just to name a few of it’s abuses.

    You want to support a real issue?, then try this link:

  51. wayne cooper says:

    Dear Scott:

    I read your post Blog about how Christianity has condemned your lifestyle of homosexuality and simply wanted to say that, that isn’t true at all! Many of the Gay community assume that since we believe that God and the Bible has clearly spoken on the issue, that we must hate them; nothing can be further from the truth!

    I love all people…including members of the Gay community. What I do not and cannot condone is sexual perversion. See, I’m clear that God “intentionally” made Male & Female. I’m clear as to what God’s purpose was and is as it relates to human sexuality.

    I’m clear that God did not make persons of the same sex compatible sexually speaking. Everyone knows that persons of the same sex CANNOT reproduce and bring new life into the world.

    I’m also clear that as a Man, God did not intend that a Penis should penetrate another man’s Anus and vice-versa. And He did not intend that women would use “Gagets” to “try” to bring pleasure to each other. God, in His infinite wisdom already has provided the answers: A man’s Penis is designed to penetrate a woman’s vagina, and a woman’s vagina is designed to recieve a man’s penis. And a Anus, male or female is not designed to recieve a penis, in that, it is solely for the purpose of eliminating human toxic waste!

    Now, my question is, what is so hateful about these facts?? Why is my thinking wrong?? It appears to me, that the Gay community is over-whelmed with guilt, and their issue over this matter is with God and not His people!

    Respectfully Yours,

    Wayne Cooper

  52. Bob Krause says:

    “He who uses faith for political purposes corrupts both his faith and faith writ large.” C. S. Lewis

  53. Tarrah Lynn says:

    Howdy! It is quite frightening to see some of the contradiction coming from members of christianity. The biggest being ‘thou shall not judge’ and then people being very judgmental. And ‘love thy neightbor’ but with so much insecurity (instead of a deap yearning to be with the savior), people are not listening to there soals. Instead there minds are full of awfull things. The worst part is, they would either take this as a joke or completly deny that they think those things. I know what is in my heart and I have had to work hard to sensor what stays in my heart. I guard my heart but pore it out at the same time. The question is not WHAT DO WE WANT? HOW CAN WE MAKE THIS A BETTER PLACE? the question is WHAT DOES GOD WANT and how does he want us to make this a better place? I am passionatly catholic and I believe every individuals struggle in life is between that person and God. The problem is that people are so open and cassual about there “sexual prefrence” and there is a lack of respect for sexual intamacy. My best friend is homosexual. God made her special, I dont agree with her but , who am I? Some people have to wear there crosses more vissually then others. The people who seem perfect are ussually the ones carrying the biggest crosses. Dont let your mind be made up, let your mind be open. Let the love of Christ shine through you, take responsability for your actions
    God bless…

  54. serge philipcoupaud says:

    I have said that religions are the sources of hates and i will repeat it as long as i i am a believer of no religions AND he who think he is the only way to GOD because of his religion is DEAD WRONG SIGNE .SERGE PHILIPPE COUPAUD

  55. anonymous says:

    I am a Christain I beleive that homosexuality is wrong. BUT, I am not God I can not judge the folks that choose the live thier lives that way. All I can do is love them as Christ would have.

    My wife’s sister is now dating a gal that used to be a guy, againg this is an issue that I can not judge, and I feel that the chooice this person made to be trans-sexual is wrong. Again This is an issue I can not judge only God can judge it.

    If ther person accepts Christ into thir life, and tries to lead their life as teh bible tells them they are good to go.

    What I would like to know is if this game is authorized by the authors of Left behind? Is the game created by a group that claims to me Christian?

    We all have extreamists to worry about. The Koran speaks that Muslims can be friendly with Christians and Jews yet there are muslims that preach Christan’s and Jews must be killed.

    Bottom line is when the end comes if their is an after life and I belive there is MANY people are going to be surprised. I just hope and pray that I am not one of them.

    Jesus Christs is my personal Lord and Saviour. I just try to lead my life as he tells me, and try to keep a love and compassion for those that I do not feel are living their life as I think God would have it. I try to not condem them or tell them they aer sinners. I can tell them I do not thnk they are right and base it on the bible but say IT is up to God to make that choice not me.

  56. Sarah says:

    To the writer of this article and all those who may feel ostracized from the church because of their sexuality: please don’t let the hypocrisy of the church keep you from forming a relationship with Jesus Christ. First of all, if homosexuality is indeed a sin, it is no worse than lying, gossiping or anything else. Jesus himself said that only “He who has no sin can cast the stone”. Any radical fundamentalist knows that the Bible says “All have sinned” and I dare anyone of them to say that they have not in some form or another. Second of all, your sexuality is between you and God. If you have a heart for God and believe in Jesus Christ, God will not condemn you. I don’t know about others but the Jesus that I have put my trust in is loving and merciful and desires no one to be lost regardless of their sexuality Although I am straight, I grew up in a church that looked down on homosexuality. However, as an adult, some of my Christian friends who are the most devout are also homosexual and admit to this unashamedly. Also keep in mind that a lot of these fundamentalists ideas about homosexualtiy stem from homophobia and not their beliefs in God. Please excuse the length of my comment but this is a subject that concerns me because people seem to forget that God’s most important characteristics are love and mercy toward everyone regardless of who they are and what they have done. A lot of Christians will have to answer to God for the things that they have done concerning homosexuals.

  57. inspflyz says:

    it is not the people – it is the act that God hates – Walk the walk and talk the talk – the Gosple of Christ is Love not hate –

  58. jester says:

    I suppose what I most want to know, is what are all these Bible-thumping bigoted, judgmental “Christians” doing on Scott-o-Rama?

    Secondly, I’ve asked this same question on my own (and other) site in the past and have NEVER been given an answer:

    Can someone, anyone, PLEASE make an argument to me against homosexuality that is not based on the Bible or other faith-based text? Just one valid argument is all I’m asking for…

    No matter what you believe in, stating that the BIBLE is a FACT, is just moronic. The Bible exists, yes, that’s a fact. God exists? Not a fact.

    Fact: noun; Knowledge or information based on real occurrences.

    Fact: Homosexuals are humans who should be afforded the same rights and opportunities as anyone else.

    Fact: This post was about a video game depicting the violent and brutal slaying by “Christians” of anyone who does not believe the way they do. Not a missive about gays and “Christians.”

    Fact: If I were to create a software about an atheist seeking out churches and systematically killing the priests, nuns, and congregation for being idiots, you can bet every single Christian organization on the planet would be calling for my immediate stoning. It’s hypocritical, and two faced, hence The Two Faces of Christianity.

  59. Jess says:

    Very, very well put. Regarding what I am about to say, I am not trying to come off as judgemental, even though it may seem this way. For those of you out there who judge homosexuals, or anyone else for that matter, shame on you. Where do you come off judging others?! Jesus Christ was and is the only person EVER who could judge. Take note, however, that he NEVER did. Ironically, all of you who do not have this power are the ones who judge. You do not have the authority to judge, only Jesus does. Funny how life goes, huh?! Jesus could judge, but never did; humans are not given the authority to judge, but do so anyway. Something’s not right. So for all of you out there who are currently judging homosexuals, take a closer look at yourselves. You are just as “guilty” as they are. Keep in mind that the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality, not the participants themselves. Sure, according to God they may be committing a sin, but so are you for judging them. And I am positive that you all are committing plenty of other sins, as well; just as we all do. So, before you go on accusing others of wrongdoings, STOP, because you are doing the exact same thing. Everyone is equal. You people are no better than anyone else, including homosexuals. Shame on you for giving Christianity a bad name. Jesus preached love and acceptance, maybe you should do the same. You are just as much of a “sinner” as a gay person is. Remember that.

  60. Julian says:

    I am a born again Christian and have been for most of my life and I have to say I disagree with you Scott on this whole issue. Infact, I think you’re making a big deal over this game. If you want Wal-Mart to ban “Left Behind: Eternal Forces” then you might as well make another petition that bans any game that exhorts violence (Grand theft auto, Postal 2, just to name a few). You should blame those games for violence againist homosexuals and other people. Left behind probably won’t even get that much attention because Christian games aren’t very appeling. Another point I want to make is radical christianity isn’t new it all. My condolences to you Scott for the antagonism you’ve faced, but you’re always going to enconter zealots in your life. Think back to The Crusades,The Spanish Inquisition, or how about the Christian slave trade? I also detest those radical right wing nuts just like you and I sincerely hope you stop condemning christianty and realize that not every Christian is like that.

  61. oneluv says:

    wow… so many people have so much to say…… some i agree with and some i don’t. bottom line is, only what GOD says matters.

    people who don’t believe in GOD, this isn’t even something for you to comment on. this is between the children of GOD and their FATHER. i believe HE calls whom he chooses and none of us are without blemish.

    thing is, once HE calls us, it is up to us to learn to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth… the WHOLE truth, not just the message of love and forgiveness. because, YES that is the GOSPEL (THANK YOU JESUS), however the Bible is very clear that GOD is also just, and salvation ALSO requires repentance of sin, and the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is sin. PERIOD.

    we all have our crosses to bear and we must pick up that cross daily and die to our fleshly lusts. mine is not homosexuality, but i do have my own issues. the Bible tells us to crucify our flesh….. to kill our flesh, daily. it is not about us, or what we want, it is about HIM and HIS purpose for our lives.

    gays should not take it so personnally. we are ALL chastized for our sins. we just don’t go alerting the media about it. the Bible tells us that we are SUPPOSED to rebuke each other when we sin. so don’t feel like we are judging you… why are you so defensive? in my mind, people are more quick to defend themselves when they feel they NEED to….. but if you’re not doing anything wrong, then why so defensive?

    to cut you some slack, yes there are egg headed people in the world who do discriminate, and yes some of them claim to be christians, but you cannot generalize and say that all christians discriminate. most christians i know do show GOD’s unconditional love to ALL. and just because someone rebukes you doesn’t mean they don’t love you… they are simply doing what the Bible tells them to do.

  62. William says:

    I am deeply sorry that you have met the wrong Christians, and are punishing all Christians for those select few’s beliefs. Not all Christians believe in hating. My church is one of those. We believe that we should love all of God’s creations, and should treat all people with respect. However, we do believe in hating the sin, much as God does. God does not hate any of His children, He hates the choices that His children make. Don’t get me wrong, homosexualitiy is a sin, but you should not be condemned for it. If anything, you should be shown more love. Homosexualitiy is a choice that is made, whether conscious or not, we are not born homosexual. The Lord has a great plan of happiness for us, but we must embrace him in order for us to fully realize this plan. Through the Lord, anything is possible. I should know, I was once homosexual. Through the Lord, I was made whole, and I now feel the full measure of His love. I do not condemn you, and neither should anyone else. I pray for your safe return back to the Lord’s side.

  63. Mike says:

    I’m sorry. God clearly condemns homosexuality. For any Christian Pastor or teacher to say otherwise is ignorant. And to say that a decade (or so) of ‘great strides’, (mostly under a secular, impeached President) is lost since Pres. Bush was in office is ridiculous. ‘Dubbya’ is a truely converted, repentant Christian. He is against homosexuality, NOT the homosexuals! What do you expect him, or any Christian to do…….read over those Scriptures and dismiss them? You obviously are a partisan liberal…..Bush has nothing to do with homosexuals being denied anything. You can criticize his politics; you are dead wrong about him causing you any type of ‘right’ being denied.
    Love the sinner, hate the sin. That’s what I, Bush and any Christian should believe. That’s what God’s word teaches.

  64. Bruce Ramsey says:

    I find it interesting that most Liberals and gays have a great hatred toward those who THINK gays will go to hell if they don’t get right with God. Yet, they are totally silent to a religion, Islam, that would have it’s believers kill gays if they don’t get right with Allah and quit being gay. Oh, and another thing. Let’s face it, gay guys, you LOVE the Bible because it makes your life-style “forbidden fruit”. It’s the Bible that adds spice to your sin because it tells you NOT to do it. IF you truly believed the Bible, and believed there was a God who was against your life-style, you WOULDN’T be gay. How could you? But, because you don’t believe in the Bible, you use it to play the victim to the hilt and, at the same time, use it to add spice to your rebelious streak. Face it, gay guys, you do.

  65. Sid says:

    Fundamentalist Protestantism hasn’t a leg upon which to stand. They were cut off as apostates centuries ago and have never returned to true faith since. Pay them no heed. They are more closely related to the teachings of Satan than they are to the original teachings of Messiah. I pitty them at the last day.

  66. SrANelson says:

    While I do agree with you that there are many Christians out there who spread hate I don’t believe it is a majority. I also disagree with this game. The only point I disagree with is that Christians are judging you as a homosexual. I, personally, disagree. However I DO NOT judge you for it. Disagreeing is not judging; as you disagree with me on my point of view I do not feel as if you are judging me.

    Jon writes:
    “Yet Jesus himself said not a single word about homosexuality… not one.” You are correct; but GOD did. GOD the unchanging, from beginning to end. I agree that GOD/Jesus desires Love and Peace among His people and I will admantly stand with you against anyone who will persecute you and try to hurt you; I will not, however, agree with you point of view.

    May the Love of God be with you and me and open our eyes to truth so that we may live together in peace and understanding.

  67. john says:

    This is a wonderful job of twisting words to suit your beliefs. There is not 2 faces of Christianity, there is one book, and a set of brlefs. Gahndi said of the faith, I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Read into this what you will.

  68. Scott says:

    Hi everyone-

    I’ve been away from the computer tonight for awhile. Wow! The discussion has really taken off. I want to thank you all for your comments regardless of which viewpoint or side you took. Having an open and civil debate about the issues that face us helps restore my faith in our ability to reach common ground someday.

    I’m still reading all the comments, so please forgive me if I haven’t responded to your specific comment or question. I’ll probably get back to you directly via e-mail.

  69. Tom says:

    I am so tired of intolerance shown by those who claim others are intolerant toward them.

    I will be brief. If what the Bible says about the Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit is true, they are one in the same. I will say that again! THEY ARE ONE!

    With that understood, Jesus has indeed commented on homosexuality quite clearly. The Bible says that it is a sin. A Christian seeks God’s devine assistance in beating sin. Failure to avail oneself to the change that God can cause, is a recipe for destruction. A choice must be made to turn from the sin, repent, and, well you know all of that meat and potatoes stuff I guess. After all I am talking to Christians right?

    It’s really pretty simple. To obsessively argue the point ad nauseum changes nothing. God says homosexuality is a sin. What part of that is difficult to unsderstand? Should we also be “tolerant” of theives who do not repent and turn from their sins? Or rapists? Or you pick the next several. That will be fine.

    I am a sinner saved by grace. WE ALL ARE!!! I ask for forgiveness and help in changing daily and know that my God hears my prayers. I also know that my God expects me to continue toward that change so that, in time, I can be more of a reflective image of Christ Himself.

    I treat homosexuals with respect but I also expect to be treated with respect when I tell the homosexual “Christian” that what he is doing is wrong. If I fail to do that I am failing my brother. Christians who don’t tell a homosexual that do not have the truth in them! I refuse to tell you that what you are doing is, suddenly, at this point in history, alright. It’s not! And I have nothing to do with that conclusion. GOD said it! He’s the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

    I will now ask for prayer from all of my fine brothers here because I fight the same curse under which we all are born. The sin nature. But, God willing, I am changing!

    Before you all blast away on this messenger, read the following article. It says a lot about tolerance that is spot on! Then tear away at my flesh with all your love.

    In His Peace,

    The Intolerance of Tolerance
    By Greg Koukl
    Thursday, December 14, 2006

    Probably no concept has more currency in our politically-correct culture than the notion of tolerance. Unfortunately, one of America’s noblest virtues has been so distorted it’s become a vice.

    There’s one word that can stop you in your tracks. That word is “intolerant.”

    This idea is very popular with post-modernists, that breed of radical skeptics whose ideas command unwarranted respect in the university today. Their rallying cry, “There is no truth,” is often followed by an appeal for tolerance.

    The tolerant person allegedly occupies neutral ground, a place of complete impartiality where each person is permitted to decide for himself. No judgments allowed. No “forcing” personal views. That all views are equally valid is one of the most entrenched assumptions of a society committed to relativism. And it’s a myth.

    For all their confident bluster, the relativists’ appeal actually asserts two truths, one rational and one moral. The first is the rational “truth” that there is no truth, a clear conflict. The second is the moral truth that one ought to tolerate other’s viewpoints. Their stand, contradictory on at least two counts, serves as a warning that the modern notion of tolerance is seriously misguided.

    The Tolerance Trick
    As it turns out, by the modern definition of tolerance no one is tolerant, or ever can be. It’s what my friend Francis Beckwith calls the “passive-aggressive tolerance trick.” Returning to the classic understanding of tolerance is the only way to restore any useful meaning to the word. Let me give you a real life example.

    Earlier this year I spoke to a class of seniors at a Christian high school in Des Moines, Iowa. I wanted to alert them to this “tolerance trick,” but I also wanted to learn how much they had already been taken in by it. I began by writing two sentences on the board. The first expressed the current understanding of tolerance:

    “All views have equal merit and none should be considered better than another.”

    All heads nodded in agreement. Nothing controversial here. Then I wrote the second sentence:

    “Jesus is the Messiah and Judaism is wrong for rejecting Him.”

    Immediately hands flew up. “You can’t say that,” a coed challenged, clearly annoyed. “That’s disrespectful. How would you like it if someone said you were wrong?”

    “In fact, that happens to me all the time,” I pointed out, “including right now with you. But why should it bother me that someone thinks I’m wrong?”

    “It’s intolerant,” she said, noting that the second statement violated the first statement. What she didn’t see was that the first statement also violated itself.

    I pointed to the first statement and asked, “Is this a view, the idea that all views have equal merit and none should be considered better than another?” They all agreed.

    Then I pointed to the second statement—the “intolerant” one—and asked the same question: “Is this a view?” They studied the sentence for a moment. Slowly my point began to dawn on them. They’d been taken in by the tolerance trick.

    If all views have equal merit, then the view that Christians have a better view on Jesus than the Jews have is just as true as the idea that Jews have a better view on Jesus than the Christians do. But this is hopelessly contradictory. If the first statement is what tolerance amounts to, then no one can be tolerant because “tolerance” turns out to be gibberish.

    Escaping the Trap”Would you like to know how to get out of this dilemma?” I asked. They nodded. “You must reject this modern distortion of tolerance and return to the classic view.” Then I wrote these two principles on the board:

    Be egalitarian regarding persons.
    Be elitist regarding ideas.[i]

    “Egalitarian” was a new word for them. Think “equal,” I said. Treat others as having equal standing in value or worth. They knew what an elitist was, though, someone who thought he was better than others. “Right,” I said. “When you are elitist regarding ideas, you are acknowledging that some ideas are better than others. And they are. We don’t treat all ideas as if they have the same merit, lest we run into contradiction. Some ideas are good, some are bad. Some are true, some are false. Some are brilliant, others are just plain foolish.”

    The first principle, what might be called “civility,” is at the heart of the classical view of tolerance. It can be loosely equated with the word “respect.” Tolerance applies to how we treat people we disagree with, not how we treat ideas we think false.

    We respect those who hold different beliefs than our own by treating them courteously and allowing their views a place in the public discourse. We may strongly disagree with their ideas and vigorously contend against them in the public square, but we still show respect for the persons in spite of our differences.

    Classic tolerance requires that every person be treated courteously with the freedom to express his ideas without fear of reprisal no matter what the view, not that all views have equal worth, merit, or truth.

    These two categories are frequently conflated in the muddled thinking created by the myth of tolerance. The view that one person’s ideas are no better or truer than another’s is simply absurd and contradictory. To argue that some views are false, immoral, or just plain silly does not violate any meaningful definition or standard of tolerance.

    Note that respect is accorded to the person, here. Whether his behavior should be tolerated is an entirely different issue. Our laws demonstrate that a man may believe what he likes—and he usually has the liberty to express those beliefs—but he may not behave as he likes. Some behavior is a threat to the common good. Rather than being tolerated (allowed), it is restricted by law. Historically, our culture has emphasized tolerance (respect) of all persons, but never tolerance of all behavior. In Lincoln’s words: There is no right to do wrong.

    The modern definition of tolerance turns the classical formula for tolerance on its head:

    Be egalitarian regarding ideas.
    Be elitist regarding persons.

    If you reject another’s ideas, you’re automatically accused of disrespecting the person (as the coed did with me). On this new view of tolerance no idea or behavior can be opposed—even if done graciously—without inviting the charge of incivility.

    To say I’m intolerant of the person because I disagree with his ideas is confused. Ironically, it results in elitism regarding persons. If I think my ideas are better than another’s, I can be ill-treated as a person, publicly marginalized and verbally abused as bigoted, disrespectful, ignorant, indecent and—can you believe it—intolerant. Sometimes I can even be sued, punished by law, or forced to attend re-education programs.

    Tolerance has thus gone topsy-turvy: Tolerate most beliefs, but don’t tolerate (show respect for) those who take exception with those beliefs. Contrary opinions are labeled as “imposing your view on others” and quickly silenced.

    This is nonsense and should be abandoned. The myth of tolerance forces everyone into an inevitable “Catch-22,” because each person in any debate has a point of view he thinks is correct.

    Classical tolerance involves three elements: (1) permitting or allowing (2) a conduct or point of view one disagrees with (3) while respecting the person in the process.

    Notice that we can’t truly tolerate someone unless we disagree with him. This is critical. We don’t “tolerate” people who share our views. They’re on our side. There’s nothing to put up with. Tolerance is reserved for those we think are wrong, yet we still choose to treat decently and with respect.

    This essential element of classical tolerance—disagreement (elitism regarding ideas)—has been completely lost in the modern distortion of the concept. Nowadays if you think someone is wrong, you’re called intolerant no matter how you treat him.

    This presents a curious problem. One must first think another is wrong in order to exercise true tolerance, yet saying so brings the accusation of intolerance. It’s a “Catch-22.” According to this approach, true tolerance becomes impossible.

    Intellectual Cowardice
    Most of what passes for tolerance today is nothing more than intellectual cowardice, a fear of intelligent engagement. Those who brandish the word “intolerant” are unwilling to be challenged by other views or grapple with contrary opinions, or even to consider them. It’s easier to hurl an insult—”you intolerant bigot”—than to confront an idea and either refute it or be changed by it. In the modern era, “tolerance” has become intolerance.

    Whenever you’re charged with intolerance, always ask for a definition. When tolerance means neutrality, that all views are equally valid and true, then no one is ever tolerant because no one is ever neutral about his own views. Point out the contradiction built into the new definition. Point out that this kind tolerance is a myth.

    Gregory Koukl is founder and president of Stand to Reason, an organization devoted to a thoughtful and engaging defense of classical Christianity in the public square. He is also a radio talk show host and author of Relativism—Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air.

  70. Steven says:

    There is definitely an absence of moderating comments here. That said, I am not a moderate voice. Surprising as it may be to some, God did not actually write the Bible. What is in the Bible is not God’s word, but humans’ interpretations. One need only look at the four out of dozens of widely published gospels. While the base story remains the same, the interpretations and retelling of the events are different. I know some will say that God speaks through the writers of the Bible and that is why it is His law. How would they account for the different Gospel and the selection of these gospels into canon law (done by people)?

    Leviticus is a commonly cited book in debates of this kind. Yes, it states clearly that homosexuality is wrong. However, it also mandates a lot of other things such as never shaving and always wearing outfits made of only one fabric. Why aren’t these issues that homophobics take up? Because modern society and reality have adjusted to allow it. Thus brings up another question (I have lots): Is it acceptable to follow bits and pieces of God’s law and not all of it? Heterosexist Christians are always apt to take the side of the Old Testament because it is God’s word, not that of Jesus, who said nothing of homosexuality. No offense to the Jewish readers, but these people may as well be orthodox Jews. The basis of Christianity is the life and teachings of Jesus, the belief in the Holy Trinity.

    Of course, there are New Testament passages which condemn homosexuality. These verses are typically stated and believed at face value and completely out of context. Translation is a huge issue when thinking about how the Bible treats homosexuality. In 1 Corinthians, the word arsenokoites means “one who has sexual intercourse with males.” By literal translation, then heterosexual women would not inherit the Kingdom of God. This has been translated to “practicing homosexuals” by the TNIV Bible. Seems to be a bit of a stretch to me. Paul’s letter to the Romans is not about men getting it on with other men. It is about how all of humanity is a sinner. It is not uncommon for speechwriters to have a broad concept and back it up through specific examples. Couldn’t this just be one of those times? The overwhelming content of the letter is about how everyone should rejoice because through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, everyone will be saved.

    Some final thoughts. Sexual orientation is fact and built into who someone is. Where the choice comes in is still internal in that it is the gay or lesbian person who must choose whether or not to accept who they are. No rational, logical human being would outright choose to lead a gay or lesbian life; it’s too difficult and subject to too much scrutiny. I am a gay man who believes that there is a God who had a son named Jesus who died to save me from my sins. I do not hate Christians. To hate Christians, be they liberal, conservative, heterosexist or gay would be to say goodbye to practically all of my friends and family. Something that I refuse to do. I think it is an affront to who and what God is to tell others what he thinks. Do we really know 100% what God would do in today’s society? Some claim to know. I certainly don’t.

  71. Hal says:

    Homosexuality is wrong !!

  72. Scott says:

    Steven (comment #68)-

    Which comments need to be moderated? I try not to censor anyone. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

  73. Molly says:

    I did a little research on this “Christian” game and it certainly does appear to be as abhorrent as this article says. It is extremely sad that it would be endorsed by some Christian groups. Unfortunately, this situation is exactly what happens when we close our eyes to the media and cry “freedom of expression” when we should be yelling “this trash is unacceptable.” This game, in terms of its violence, is so tame it’s laughable. What is so monstrous is the idea that Muslims, Catholics, gays, etc. are fair game–in the most literal sense–for slaughter if they are not converted. The violence used is the lesser part of the problem–the real poison is the hatred it encourages towards other groups. The fact is, as a general social trend we have consented to the brutality, misogyny, and total disrespect for human life in of hundreds of other games, movies, and all manner of media. And now we want to scream foul? Please.

  74. Scott says:

    Molly (comment #71)-

    I agree. Violence in video games, movies, etc, just shows how little we value human life and each other.

    I don’t believe in censorship, but I do think we need to examine our values as a society as to why violence is so pervasive in our media.

  75. Joe Buckstrap says:

    I think Paulite Christianity (that’s kind of a redundancy) is antithetical to the teachings of the man we call Jesus.

    I firmly believe that Thomas Jefferson understood this:

    “Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”

    Reference: 1820 (Jefferson, Extracts, 392-393)

    “I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.”

    Reference: Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote “Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?”)

  76. Joan Elise says:

    Dear Friend: I stumbled upon your site as I found interest in the topic of “The Two Faces of Christianity”. I was grieved to discover that the very intollerance of which you speak, was blatantly spoken within the text of your message. I am confused and perplexed. I must agree that Christianity today is far from the precepts of the Bible. We have become diluted and fractured. It is no wonder that there are so many who look to “the church” for answers come away with distorted views such as an acceptance of a gay lifestyle as acceptable. I accept gay people, but I am grieved at the misguided nature of the lifestyle. As well, I am grieved at the misguided nature of straight lifestyles that are promiscous. I love you, but I pray that God will overwhelm you with truth. Thanks for listening.

  77. Joe says:

    I just want to say that the bible IS written by man, BUT inspired by God. Therefore it is God’s will. Steven talks about how in Lev they mention other laws whic we do not keep. This is true, because Jesus told us that we do not need to fallow the laws of Moses. But God said then that when man lies with another man as he would with a woman it is an abomination. That wasn’t a law. THat was a fact and God’s view. Secondly it is in the new testement multiple times. 1 Cor 6, for instance. Neither homosexuals nor sodomites will inherit the kingdom of heaven. You quote the NIV, or some version of it, which has been proven to be different from the original scriptures. YES, bibles vary thee days, but it is because of stupid people trying to get the bible worded in their favor. Read the King James Version. It is as authentic as it gets. It translates right back to the original greek and hebrew.

    Don’t argue that the bible doesn’t speak out against homosexuality (notice I didn’t say gays, meaning the people themselves). Some things are very easy to understand, but people like to try to slandar the bible so they can have their way.

    Last thought, maybe you think that you don’t have a choice on being a homosexual. I’m not going to argue that since I have no personal experiences there. But what about a, alcoholic? You can be born with acolholism in your blood. Do you have to drink? Is being a drunkard wrong? (Yes…)

    I don’t hate anyone. Since being saved I find that I love everyone. But homosexuals will not inhereit the kingdom of heaven, Nor drunkards, nor thieves, nor fornicators, nor idolators… I could go on and on.

    Quit sinning, leave that life, repent, ask for forgiveness, and God will forgive you and bless you.

    God bless everyone!

  78. Harold J Macek says:

    This issue hardly settles anything..First when a person discovers that he, or she–is not sexually “normal” is a tragidy..An injustice..but hardly worth being named—“gay”, sad would be more like it..To be not normal is nothing to be happy about..On the other hand–it is not something to kill your self over..A person can live a good life with out sex, or kids.. Homosexuals can make themselves useful to society…Not however by saying they are “gay”..and flount it in everyones face…Then there is the church–shame on them for denouncing homosexuals—no matter what–these people are just that–people–human beeings..and should be treated as such by the church. When these people practice sex between them–that is the abomination..that is wrong..Getting married??? Two homosexuals marrying each other…–another abomination.. Why did the practice of “wedding” start?? Just to keep men from promiscuis sex..To know to whom each child belongs…for many–financial …two pride–three–resposibility–and there are more reasons…Then there is the reason our forefathers came to this “new” world…The first, and foremost–“religous” freedom…remember if you did not belong to the kings cgurch–you were outlawed..Catholic priests were hunted down, and killed in England..Catholics practiced thier religion in people basements, out of the publics eye…So–now the republicans are telling us we must obey the by his laws..ironic–the dems elect the first catholic, and the repubs use it agaiinst every if they are the only religious people in the USA..too bad both the repubs, and the dems are so crooked..Maybe we do need a third party…You know something is wrong when a man spends over 100 million dollars to get a 150 thousand dollar job..When he is elected–who does he belong to???

  79. JdEB says:

    Well, well….Scott you’ve managed to spark some feelings in your readers with this post. First of all – as I recalll WAAAY up this page, the original question was “Do you think that it’s right for kids to have a game that intentionally allows them to ‘kill’ others that they want to?” And for me the answer is – What sort of crack pot would sell something like that?

    You all have turned Scott’s blog into a forum for your personal beliefs – and the fact is NO ONE is altogether right or altogether wrong – if you believe something then fine, it’s just not necessary for us to all agree on everything! Thats the one common mistake that everyone makes on a daily basis – that we won’t allow anyone else to have an opinion. It’s colored every act that mankind has ever made going back to the Caveman (yes, I said CAVEMAN, NOT Adam) and continues today. Christianity has been hijacked by a small group of Americans that think that the whole world would be so much better off if we would all just get to church and pray every Sunday. Well folks, it ain’t gonna happen. Never has, never will. If you want to go to your chosen house of worship, then by all means go – but leave me to sleep late and read the paper and watch football.

    Okay, now I’M doing it – I will retire to leave you all to your vitriol.


  80. Craig says:

    Tom, Tom, Tom: I too read Koukl’s commentary on TownHall. While I agree with much of his sentiment, his thesis is inherently flawed in this context. The concept of “Be egalitarian about people, Be elitist about ideas” indeed makes sense, however being gay is NOT an idea.
    An idea is “War is good!”, an idea is “I like chinese food.” These are ideas/opinions which can be debated. Debating homosexuality in this context makes no sense. It’s like saying “I disagree that you have blue eyes!” It’s not open to agreement or not. Either you have blue eyes or you don’t. Perhaps your holy book says, having Blue Eyes is sin. It’s ok to have blue eyes but you cannot use them.
    Does that make sense to you? God gave you blue eyes, you can pretend to not have blue eyes and you can wear brown contacts, but at some point you must accept that you have blue eyes and that God intended that for you. To deny this is an affront to God.

  81. Joe says:


    You are correct that we all do not have to agree on everything. God gave us that liberty. But, if you don’t agree that Christ Jesus is your Lord, then you will be sentenced to eternal damnation. Same with homosexuals, drunkards, and so on. THIS is why we make a big deal out of it. Because we love you guys and we don’t want to see it happen to you. No atheist, nor agnostic will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Only those who have faith in Jesus and repent will have the honor of God’s mercy and grace.

  82. Joe says:


    God gave some men a weaknes to alcohal, but He doesn’t want them to drink.
    Some men He gave a weakness towards women, but He doesn’t want us to be a adulterer, nor a fornicator.
    Some people God puts in situations where they believe they need to steal, but God deosn’t want them to be thieves.

    All these people will not experience Gods grace when they will be brought before him on judgement day, unless they refrain from their desires and seek Jesus.

    I ony say these things because I care. I try to care for every person just as Jesus cared for the world. That He gave his life for mine. I would rather insult a few people and win one to Christ that to try to not offend anyone. Because when the liars, homosexuals, thieves, and drunkards go to the lake of fire, they’ll probably be mad if I hadn’t given them a warning.

  83. Craig says:

    You miss the point. Being gay is not a weakness, it is not a sickness, it is not a crime, it is neither less or more a sin than your heterosexuality. It simply is. Either you’re gay or you’re not. Trying equate it with these things is intellectually dishonest. You refuse to believe, because you don’t WANT to believe. My mother is about as die-hard fundamentalist, evangelical christian as they come. When I came out she took it as hard as you’d expect, but now she loves me and accepts me and my partner as family. She’s read the bible and is able to reconcile this with God. She found a way. If she can do it, so can you – but you just don’t want to. Someday it’s going to be your son, daughter, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, cousin, or friend. Maybe then you’ll feel different.

  84. Jon says:

    big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree]
    –noun, plural -ries.
    1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.

    How sad it is how much religious fanaticism divides.

  85. wayne cooper says:

    For the people who insist on living a sexually perverted lifestyle, you will someday stand before a Holy God who will judge you and consigned you to an everlasting state of conscious suffering, separated from God and Christ for all Eternity. Now, I know that the “unregenrate” mind cannot possibly comprehend the concept of Hell, and will therefore, reject any such notion.

    However, God already have warned us that people will reject truth and will consequently, bring damnation upon themselves. Please look objectively at the Gospel Message, the evidence of God, both in Creation and on the human conscious says the Apostle Paul.


  86. Craig says:

    It’s spelled “unregenerate,” maybe you can read the bible or pray for God to help you spell better.

  87. Craig says:

    I apologize, that was unnecessary. But, honestly dude, if you’re going to be insulting – at least spell-check.

  88. Joe says:


    “it is neither less or more a sin than your heterosexuality”

    This is wrong. The bible says the homosexualisty is an abomination and a sin. If you disagree with that or think differently you are not a christian and/or trying to compromise. When you leave this earth and are judged by God, He judge you for your sins. If you tell him that you decided to compromise on the issue He won’t excuse you.

    You can call being gay whatever you want. You can say that God made you that way. I am not going to agrue with you about that. But I DO KNOW that God will not fogive you if you continue to live a life of sins. Sins which are printed as plainly as possible in the bible.

    If we compromise about homosexuality, then what still is true? You cannot just question the word of God and then expect Him to excuse you. If I were to question whether murder was a sin or not it wouldn’t make murder not a sin. I could say that maybe the bible didn’t really mean that murder was a sin. It doesn’t mean that if I murder and don’t repent that I’ll get off free. And don’t think that I am comparing murder and homosexuality in a reference to society. Obviously murder is a crime and homosexuality is not. And it shouldn’t be. But in the eyes of God they are both sins.

  89. V. W. says:

    Those with viewpoints in opposition to Scott and Craig:

    Boys and girls, it is time to obey your Bibles. Shake the dust off your feet and move on. These folks are not interested in truth, or in what scripture says.

    Such have been, and are turned over to a reprobate mind. Let them wallow in it. Many of you have given accurate, and sincere scriptural truth only to be rebuffed, and argued with. These guys think they know it all, and you are wasting your time. Let them peddle their ignorance when they are forced to bow the knee to a holy and righteous God.

  90. Craig says:


    “If we compromise about homosexuality, then what still is true? You cannot just question the word of God and then expect Him to excuse you.”

    Yet Christians compromise on the word of God EVERY DAMN DAY! It’s called hypocrisy. Either we’re all sinners or we’re not. Either we’re all going to hell or we’re not.

    How do you reconcile all the things done daily which are condemned in the bible? What is the process for deciding which things you pick in the bible to follow and which ones you do not?

    Please enlighten us. It should be an interesting conversation.

    Again, I say, imagine if your holy book said that Blue Eyes are an abomination and are sin. You were born with Blue Eyes. You can try not to have Blue Eyes, but this is a lie, and at some point you have to reconcile with your God the fact that you have Blue Eyes. It is a part of who you are. Your church tells you that it’s ok to have blue eyes but you cannot use them, if you give in and use your blue eyes you are sinning, falling short of the grace of God and will be judged by him for using your blue eyes. They say that using your blue eyes is just the same as murder, but they understand that having blue eyes isn’t a crime. But in the eyes of God they are both sins. You just have to pray harder, try harder and if you follow the teachings of your holy book God will make your blue eyes brown, and then you will pass judgment in heaven.

    Yep, it’s just as crazy as your argument.

  91. Michael says:

    I could go on about this ad nauseum coming from an fudamentlist backgroud as well, and now being a happily married gay man (married to a man of course), but I will just state a couple of things:

    1) God loves and accepts me for who I am. I made not choise to be attracted to someone of the same sex. There were no environmental influences, I am simply who God made me to be. I would as you, when did you chose to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex? If sexual orientation is not inherent to who we are then you must have made a choise at some point in your life. If it is a part of who we are then we have no choise. This is not about making a choise to sleep with someone, this is about your biology. What gets you excited…phyically aroused? For me, it isnt the sight of a female. I can appreciate a beautiful female, but…nothing happens. Now, if I see a male that I find attractive, well…you know what happens.

    2) No one has yet to address the multiple instances in the Old Testament where many things are forbidden, called sins and yet modern day christians do them. You can’t pick and choose either if you claim that the Bible is the inherent word and all of it must be obeyed or you are going to hell. Which is it?

    I would recommend that you read the book ‘What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality” by Daniel K. Helminiak. He examines each section of the Bible that mentions homosexuality. I will leave the analysis up to you, but in my opinion, explains these passages in a modern way that hopefully will help you see a more proper interpretation. My personal favorite is his debunking of the Sodom and Gamorrah story. Do you really believe that every man in these towns was gay? Read the book, look at the historical record of what was done in those times to any visitor.

    No example in the Bible condemns a loving, committed relationship between two people of the same sex. Why can’t we get married and fulfill that ‘requirement’? Because you won’t let us. Except for those people in Massachusetts and many other countries. I guess they are’nt sinning since they can marry. The gay lifestyle is the same as any other single lifestlye. No different than straight bars on a Saturday night. If you would only accept us as fellow people and nurture the ideas of loving, committed relationships, then the gay lifestyle would become nothing. Can anyone really define the gay lifestyle? I think you will find it very similar to yours!

    Anyway, I guess I have gone on more than I thought I would.

    God Bless and Happy Holidays!


  92. The Hermit says:

    Wow. Good article, Scott, and good discussion everyone. I’ll try to be brief. I’m a Gay Christian, and see no contradiction in that. I’m always delighted to see when people take Christ’s two commandments literally:
    Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second is like unto it,
    Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (King James Version, Matthew 22:37-40)

    Mark Twain said, “If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be–a Christian.” Which is a simple way of saying that selfish, power-hungry humans will use just about anything to gain their ends. The Bible has been (mis)used to justify slavery, child-beating, and gender-discrimination. None of those uses were in line with Christ’s two commandments.

    Interestingly, Christ himself had nothing to say about Gays, Lesbians, or homosexuals. He did have a lot to say about hypocrisy. He condemned it. Over, and over, and over again.

    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense, make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.”
    — Jesus Christ, Matthew 23: 14-15

    In fact, the bulk of Matthew 23 is His condemnation of hypocrites. I have to quote one more because I think it’s so relevant today: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.” — Jesus Christ, Matthew 23:27

    There are, as Scott pointed out, Christians who try very hard NOT to be hypocrites. When you see in Church advertisements or signs that they are a “welcoming church” it means that the congregation as a whole has said that Gays and Lesbians are welcome there, regardless of the overall denomination’s dogma.

    For me, the best evangelization that we Christians can do is emulation of Christ. We don’t need to jump up and down on soap boxes, we don’t need to rant and rave about those we’d like to condemn to hell, and we certainly don’t need to advertise our piety. The power of grace and condemnation is God’s alone — not ours as flawed human beings.

    Thanks for provoking a good discussion, Scott.

    PS: If you want to read a beautiful love story between two men, believe it or not, it’s in the Bible! Here’s a teaser to make you go look it up online ( provides free access): “And it came to pass, …, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.” And for those who loved the Indiana Jones movies, the first few chapters of 1 Samuel tell the story of the Ark of the Covenant.

  93. Keven says:

    You never cease to astonish me. What a discussion!
    As a German, you become very sensitive to the language people use. Reading some of these comments, I hear echoes of the same mentality which led “normal, decent Christians” to follow the Nazis in their murder and torture of Jews, Roma, homosexuals, Catholic priests, children born with mental or physical defects – and countless others who were not “chosen”.
    In the name of Christ, many of these “born-again” folks are going down the same road, again. They pretend that it is ok for them to discriminate against us, the have convinced themselves that their hatred for us is really “God’s love” working through them.
    As glbt (I really dislike that acronym. Any better ideas, Scott?) – we need to wake up and start pushing back, or they will have us in the ovens next. For our own good, of course.
    Scott, I think Martin Niemüller said it better than I can:
    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

  94. Nixxie says:

    I believe all people, black, white, green purple, male, female, whatever, should all be treated the same. Until everyone in the world lives by this we will have hatred, war, hunger, greed, torture, murder. It is a shame that people have to hide behind their god to justify these acts against others.

  95. Heather says:

    I read and re-read all these comments today and yesterday… and I have only one thing to add…

    Where is the Love??

    Where is the tolerance that this world so lacks??

    Where is the care and compassion for your fellow man?

    What happened to to having an open mind and an open heart?

    It amazes me that at this time of war among the powers that be – we can still be so petty about ones chosen lifestyle or ones emotions, or where one spreads their love.

    So… all you misguided christians – I forgive you for your close-mindedness…

    Someone has to.

  96. Keven says:

    Good for you Heather. What a pity that the Christianists can’t find it in their hearts to leave us alone.

  97. Jon says:

    This thread has really stirred some deep thought within me… I have often asked myself why the issue of homosexuality raises such intense emotion and vehement opposition. After all, we don’t see blogs where people are blasting hellfire and brimstone speeches at others for being greedy, gluttonous or divorced – ALL “sins” as well, according to the Bible.

    I think many factors play into this reaction, the first being a sense of shame regarding sex in general – a common undercurrent teaching of churches.

    Another significant factor may be the high percentage of people who struggle with same-sex attraction (particularly in the church), but seek to deny it to themselves and everyone around them. These people are hyper-sensitive to the issue of the homosexuality. In their self-inflicted and society-imposed shame, and in an attempt to divert any questioning of their own sexuality, they overemphasize their protest of gays and lesbians – and they usually end up getting caught in some scandal.

    Another reason I suspect many choose to climb a spiritual high horse regarding homosexuality is that not as many struggle with this “sin” as others. Nearly everyone struggles with greed, lying, selfishness, etc. And the majority of our population is divorced and overweight. So for these issues, there is much understanding and sympathy – in fact, most churches even have bible-based weight loss programs or Sunday school classes titled “Single Again.” But for the homosexual — if statistics are correct — only ten percent know what it is like to be gay. And certainly the vast majority have no sense of real understanding on the subject. All they know is that the idea of sex with someone of the same sex, for them, is repulsive. So they have so sympathy for this issue – no reference point from which to draw. And that makes it much easier to condemn.

    Regardless, those who judge gays and lesbians with such harshness, quoting the bible as their proof text, need to keep in mind the following scripture:

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:1-2

    The excuse of “love the sinner, hate the sin” or “I have nothing against gay people, BUT…” is nothing more than trying to whitewash one’s judgment. It’s like Simon Cowell on ‘American Idol’ prefacing his statements to contestants with, “I’m not being rude, but…” and then hurling insults at them. Just because one qualifies his statement with “I’m not judging…” doesn’t mean he isn’t.

    Lastly, the fundamentalist Christians need to keep in mind that not everyone out there is interested in the Christian viewpoint. Just as with the battle over “Happy Holidays” versus “Merry Christmas,” the reality is that there are well over 20 major religions in this world (major = over 500 thousand members). And the Christian bible itself acknowledges that not everyone will follow the Christian religion. So why this browbeating over following the Christian religion? Showing love and respect for your neighbor (and his or her religion of choice) is a much better example of Jesus and does much more toward inviting people to Christ than beligerrent sermons and scripture-hurling.

    So it is my hope and prayer that in this season of holidays, we will all remember some other words from the Christian bible – “Peace on earth, good will to mankind.”

  98. Alexander says:

    “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.” – Thomas Paine

    If it were not for organized religion and it’s attendant intolerance of anything not itself, mankind would already be going to the stars. As it is, we’re mired on this cosmic mote, STILL arguing and killing each other over god-myths!

  99. JdEB says:

    Well, I really can’t add anymore to this discussion…I mean – we’ve all beaten this horse so dead that you can’t recognize it as a horse anymore. But I thought that it was cool that I could be the 100th comment, and so here it is:


    Merry Christmas to All, And Happy New Year!


  100. Two Sirius says:

    Fantastic. How ’bout them family values?

  101. wayne cooper says:

    To Michael and The Hermit:

    After reading your posts, my heart ached for the both of you. For Michael, because he is clearly confused, and for the Hermit, because he has been decieved into thinking that Christianity and Homosexuality are compatible. What a shame!

    I have always been amazed that whenever the subject of homosexuality comes up, most people usually argue their point from either a theological or philosophical view point. I have never heard anyone tackle this issue from a medical/physical perspective, which I believe, will give clarity to the matter whether we accept it or not. Therefore, here goes:

    First, it is unmistakably clear that God “intentionally” created “Male & Female”, and gave them the appropriate physical makeup that would compliment one another and be compatible for one another sexually speaking. We know that God intended that when it comes to sexual intimacy, He desired that one man and one woman within the boundary of marriage would enjoy the pleasure of sexual oneness.

    Second, God obviously created Male & Female with the capacity to “re-produce” and bring new life into the world! Persons of the same sex cannot make this happen! Thus, for two persons of the same sex to engaged in sexual relationships, is a clear “perversion” of what God intended.

    Third, there are adverse physical consequences of this deviant behavior. I’ve known homosexual men to need surgery to repair damaged tissue inside their rectum, and consequently, they could not prevent themselves from deficating involuntarily!

    Fourth, God made a man’s semen/sperm to “swim” inside a woman’s fallopian tube to enter her uterus and therefore, fertilize an egg. When a man release’s semen inside another man’s Anus, the only place his sperm can swim to is in the man’s feces, which is clearly not what God intended.

    My objective is not to gross anone out, quite the contrary, it is to show you that when we decide that we know better than God in terms of what He intended as it relates to human sexuality, then we must be prepared to deal with the consequences of our choices!

    A well-known preacher said something very profound about the choices we make in life: “God will allow us to make our choices in life, but He will not allow us to choose the consequences of those choices.” (Adrian Rogers)

    In closing, I simply want to say to those who struggle with homosexuality, God does love all of you! That is why He sent His Son, Jesus to die on the cross in order that you might become a “new creation in Christ, so that the old things might pass away!”

    No person, whether homosexual or hetersexual can claim a “authentic” relationship with Jesus Christ who is not willing to repent of their “lifestyle” of sexual sin. Whenever you see a person repenting in the Bible, and place their faith in Christ, there is ALWAYS a difference in their l”lifestyle.” They NEVER remained the same! Zaccheus repented of his stealing from people as a Tax-Collector and was changed by the power of Christ; we do not see him remaining as a thief who stole from innocent people and then still claim a relationship with Christ.

    The problem with many of the persons on this site is that they are “Amateurs” in terms of trying to interpret Scripture, and they are therefore, relegated to their own vices and feelings, none of which is the “Authority” on the clear Teaching of Scripture. Now, I’d be very interested in hearing from those who think you can give an acceptable reason as to why God says it’s okay for a man to insert his penis into another man’s Anus and for a Women to use “Gagets” on other Women to try to bring them sexual pleasure when He has ALREADY provided the answer!

  102. Joe says:

    Craig, Michael, Hermit, Heather, and anyone else…

    In 2 Tim 3:16 it lets us know that the bible was inspired by God and it is a good reference for correction. This is why all of my arguments are referable to the bible.

    “Where is the love?”

    I love every man, woman, and child. I have befriended gay people my whole life. I love them, but do not believe that they will go to heaven if they break God’s commandments. I have family members who are good people, nice people, but do not believe in Christ Jesus. I do not think they will go to heaven either. I love them and want them to.

    I am not a hypocrite. I know that many christians are. I am on their case even more than nonchristians. 1 Cor 5 talks about the problems with people “named a brother” who do not keep God’s law. Non believers don’t know better. This is why I try to spread the gospel.

    Again, I am not a hypocrite. God would never make me sin. James 1:13 tells us that God Himself woulo never tempt us. I put forth much effort to not sin and if for some reason I do (because I do mess up) I repent and try my hardest to not put myself in a situation where I might sin again.

    God calls homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament. It is true that because of the New Testament we do not need to fallow the laws of Moses. But, in the New Testement is again says that neither homosexuals nor sodomites will inherit the kingdom of God.

    I will never justify disobeying God’s law. I am sorry if homosexuals are persecuted. Nobody should be. But no sinner will inherit the kingdom of God without faith and repentance. I love you all and I want you to accept Christ.

    Wise man once said-

    “If homosexuality is not represented as a sin in the bible, than nothing is.”

  103. The Hermit says:


    Thanks for a civil post on a difficult topic. There’s been a lot written about the original language around what has been translated as “sodomite” and “homosexual” in modern versions of the Bible. You may be interested in googling the terms and reading it. It’s difficult for me to understand, however, that so many make reference to homosexuals in 1st Corinthians, but so little reference to the rest of the verse about idolaters and adulterers. Combine that phrase with Matthew 19:8-9 (NIV):

    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    And certainly, the world is filled with idolaters who are pursuing ultra-wealth, ultra-popularity, and a host of other modern day “idols”… where are those who are railing against them?

    Anyway, we’ll probably not solve this issue on this forum, but I think the most important thing is that we all remain talking civilly. There’s room for disagreement, and certainly a need for respect of each other’s beliefs.

    God bless you…

    The Hermit

  104. bonnie says:

    Problem with debating something like this is that it is beliefs that are being debated, and in this case the beliefs I’m reading aren’t really provable. I happen to think that the evidence (including what I see among my own circle of friends & acquaintances, which is quite diverse, as tends to be the case for folks who live in NYC) points to the gender-identity/blue eyes equivalent made earlier in the comments, but I realize I can type ’til my fingers fall off & not change any minds.

    The one thing I keep thinking when I read the comments from the God-hates-homosexuality side of the stadium is – wow. They seem to be very positive they are right.

    Has it occured to them that they might be wrong?

    And if someone truly doesn’t understand that when they make a statement that runs “This Is What God Thinks,” there’s a chance they might be mistaken, isn’t that a bit arrogant? AKA Prideful? Isn’t pride one of the “7 deadly sins”?

    Seems like a little humility, a little understanding that one’s all-too-human mind might possibly have made a mistake about God’s intentions & desires, might not be such a bad thing.

    Of course by saying that, I might be doing the same thing on a different level. That’s another reason it’s hard to debate this stuff well. I don’t think they’re right, and I think they’re puffing themselves up by telling the GLBT folks that they are definitely not savable unless they deny a part of who they are & pretend to be something they’re not – but I can’t swear I’m not doing the same thing myself.

  105. Mario says:

    Anybody whose sole logic consists of “God hates Fags” is obviously a basket case and can/should be ignored.

    But any honest introspection on this subject raises some questions, like:

    1. What if there really is a God?
    2. What if He has a plan for the basic structure of life which, when sincerely followed, leads to earthly happiness and some eternal reward?
    3. What if my homosexuality, like my asthma, is a biological dysfunction?
    4. What if, like my asthma, there was a daily medicine I could take to correct the situation?

    Lots of “if’s” here, of course, but… that’s the nature of having an open mind.

    But back to the initial topic… Why does this Left Behind video game bother me more than, say, Grand Theft Auto? I think it has to do with the basic philosophy of the game.

    GTA is, patently, about criminal activity. There is no pretense of “rightness” about anything, so (although I’ve never played it), there would seem to be less moral danger.
    On the other hand, if a game is portraying killing as morally good behavior, then I think that’s a much more serious matter. Never having seen the game, I nonetheless expect the plot to be all about “fighting the good fight”, and while that might ultimately require killing some enemies, I think that glorifying this warrants grave concern.
    I have a similar reservation about most movies – the “problem” is ultimately solved only through some intense physical conflict — like blowing up the Death Star. Life isn’t usually like that, but we’re being taught/conditioned to expect quick, violent solutions that lead to happy endings. Satisfying on the sliver screen, but … not generally seen elsewhere.

  106. Sara Andrews says:

    After reading some of these comments I am even HAPPIER I got away from the Prodestant based Christian Church. I would really not like to include myself in any group which these people claim a part.

    The Crosswalk America people sound a lot like the Unitarian Universalist Church (of which I am a member, as a secular humanist if you will), but Crosswalk seems more on the Christian edge (there are many non-believers etc in my church, oh and they perform gay marraiges, yey!). Their principles are:

    * The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
    * Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
    * Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
    * A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
    * The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
    * The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
    * Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

    I guess we’re down for killing in this game… oh well.

    There are religious people who are truly loving and intelligent, but not many of them are commenting in your blog it seems. I feel like apologizing for them as part of humanity, but I can’t so… keep strong~!

  107. oneluv says:

    it’s absolutely about “denying who you are”


    you claim to know Jesus’ message so well… you only want to hear the message of love and forgiveness of sins…


    he was our example. he came to serve, not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

    so YES we are supposed to deny “who we are” because it is not about US.

    we all have our cross to bear… you say that you do not have a choice and that you were born gay…. okay, if you say so… but still, the bible says that it is better to cut your hands off than to keep them and continue to steal. you have to deny the natural tendencies of the flesh. you were born gay, fine… but some are born with tendencies to start fires, to steal, to be permiscuous, to do drugs, alcohol…. i could go on here…. the flesh is tainted (thanks adam and eve) and this includes all people….

    the thing is gays/lesbians etc. YOU GUYS bring all the attention to yourselves!!! you are the ones alerting the media with your “hell no we won’t go” attitude. and any good christian will rebuke you if you put something that does not represent the truth out there, ESPECIALLY if you’re attaching JESUS’ name to it.

  108. smeejay says:

    for days now i’ve been running these posted comments through my head and while i’m not a biblical scolar or even a bible reader, i do have very strong opinions on this subject. the inequity of the stance of these self described “christians” is utter gall. if you wish to live your life here on this planet during this lifetime guided by a code of ethics established in a book written during a time when all fledgling religions had to procreate like bunnies just to survive, that is ENTIRILY your right. in fact i will fight for your right to beleive what you will. as did my father in wwII and his father before him. this is indeed the principle behind this country that is the greatest experiment in democracy civilized man has ever known. what i will not stand for any longer, is your right to place your supersticiously based beliefs on how i conduct my life. if this is how you really feel, then go tell it on the mountain. i am so completly NOT interested. i feel your opinions and retoric, which of course, no matter how much you protest they are, are self centered, based on a flawed and insecure ego and frankly overbearinly BORING!!! you have been, currently are and will continue to be, as long as you reside here now on this earth reaping the benefits of gay’s contributions every minute of every day. would or could you ever acknowledge and god forbid(yes i do beleive in god’s existence, so much so that i would never malign god by refering to god in the masculine as this misognistic world always feels a need to do) for you to ever celebrate our lives or contributions. we cut your hair, design your clothing, decorate your homes, and frankly enrich your daily lives. get it- you make the babies, we make the rest pretty. this doesn’t mean that we don’t also deliver mail and toss footballs during nfl games, it is our great desire to offer the world our creativity and love. it is all of our natures to create, both hetro and homo. it’s not what we bring to the table, it is that we do. we also did during your father’s time and his father’s time before him since the beginning of time. in fact the indiginious american cultures revered our ability to help out with domestic duties staying home with the women and children, while the hetros when out on hunting parties. we could cook and clean as well as the women yet if attacked by a marauding tribe we could defend the tribe as well as the absent men. thank god today we’re even taking up what was traditionally straight sociaties role as parents through aboption and surogate parenting. sure hetro society adds artistically as well, but just ask anyone in any artistic field (if you even know any) what the precentage of gays and lesbians they’ve worked with is! we do not do this with your ackowledgement and support, yet we give and enrich and continue to give and give. that how f*cking beautiful we are. your insulting judments don’t affect our outpouring of love in any way. i know you say you are also motivated by your love. your love for the redemption of our lost souls. well if you’re an example of our eternal company in “heaven” , then i’d gladly go to “hell”. partying with sylvester and divine would be gobs more fun. i also hear the margaritas are better! and if indeed “hell” is our destiny, is it not up to god during our “final judgement” to decide this? is god so in need of assistance that he leans on the likes of you bigots to fill in until then? i guess what i’m really getting at is, BACK THE F*CK OFF. WE ALL KNOW YOUR MESSAGE, AD NASEUM. WHEN WE NEED OR WANT YOUR HELP, WE’LL COME A KNOCKIN’ ON YOUR OR THE CHURCH’S DOOR!!! buddah reminds us that when the student is ready the teacher will appear. until then, get involved or even more involved in poverty, homelessness, aids, things that you can affect and are willing for you to affect. you know, back to the teachings of your namesake, christ. and quit hiding behind the retoric of “saving” our souls. whew, that felt good!

  109. Joe says:


    I thank you, in return, for a civil post. I know that there is very little I can say to change anyone’s mind on this subject. The people on here are all probably very set in their ways/thoughts.

    I do not believe that the bible was translated incorrectly, but I do not want to argue that point. I think you made a greater point anyway.

    I agree that people don’t look at adultry enough. Nor pride, nor idolism. I believe that homosexuality is a sexual sin, which is a sin against the body. I also belive that adultry is, beastiality, and other sexual sins. I do not think that pornography is permissable. BUt I know that I used to look at it before I was saved. But Jesus said that even looking at a woman with lust in the heart is adultry. Just like he said that one should not divorce. I totally agree. I am trying to fight against all sins. I do not think that any one is acceptable. I tihnk a homosexual is sinning if he gives into his/her temptations. He is just as guilty as a drunk. I am constantly fighting alcoholism in christians. They somehow think that it is ok but being gay isn’t. I don’t agree with that. I think neither are ok. So, again, I agree with you that many sins are overlooked.

    I am also very against the “christians” who show hate towards gays or anyone else. I think that love is the only answer, but again, my love can’t save them from damnation. Only repentance of sins and faith can.

    Conclusively, I feel that homosexuality, as all sins, cannot be overlooked. I think that if you try to argue that it isn’t a sin, then you discredit all that is in the bible. I believe the book to be completely true and inspired by God.

    Hermit, I don’t think we’ll be agreeing anytime soon, but thank you for returning my thoughts with intelligence and civility. I pray for everyone’s salvation and I hope that if anyone reads these posts that they might accept Christ in their lives.

  110. Joe says:

    And to all the nonbelievers…

    Just because I say that I do not believe in semi trucks, doesn’t mean that if I decide to step in front of one, it won’t hit me.

  111. The Hermit says:

    Joe: I think we will agree that it’s wonderfully liberating to let God do the judging of others, so that we don’t have to. Have a merry Christmas!


    “Neither homosexuals nor sodomites will inherit the kingdom of heaven.”






  113. Jon says:

    If one were to measure the importance of subjects based on the number of times they are mentioned in the bible, we might be surprised to find what is most important to God:

    Judge/judging – 223 times
    Hate/hatred – 139 times
    Murder/kill – 130 times
    False (lying) – 113 times
    Gossip/slander/malice – 77 times
    Arrogant/arogance – 58 times
    Greed/greedy/love of money/envy – 57 times
    Adultery – 46 times
    Divorce – 33 times
    Lust – 31 times

    And how many passages are there traditionally thought to be referring to homosexuality in any way in the entire bible? Six.

    Additionally, when we narrow the search to what Jesus himself had to say, here are the results:

    Murder/kill – 69 times
    Judge/judging – 29 times
    Hate/hatred – 22 times
    Hypocrite – 17 times
    False (lying/fake) – 17 times
    Divorce – 14 times
    Adultery – 14 times
    Greed – 4 times
    Gossip/slander/malice – 3 times
    Lust – 1 time
    Arrogant/arogance – 1 time

    And the grand total for references to homosexuality… 0 times

    Clearly, God and Jesus himself are MUCH more concerned with hatred and judging than they are homosexuality (even IF those six passages were translated correctly). I think it’s time for the fundementalists to end the witchhunt.

    Instead, we should all focus on the things God asks:

    Love – 697 times
    Peace – 247 times
    Joy – 242 times
    Mercy – 124
    Compassion – 88 times
    Kindness – 59 times
    Goodness – 19 times
    Patience – 17 times

    Happy Holidays to you all.

  114. I’ve read all the comments in this blog, agree with some of them, and disagree with others. We’re human beings, and no one has all knowledge except Almighty God. Dialogues, points of view, opinions, and, yes, verbal attacks, are all part of the human experience. May we all – myself included – grow in wisdom, compassion, love, and understanding day by day. Keeping God in the foreground would seem to pretty much make that blessing a reality.

    I’m not gay, nor am I a Christian as defined by someone with fanatical leanings. (Are you with us or ag’in us; praise The Lord and wield the sword; kill a commie for Jesus ‘n mommie. . . that sort of thing) Yes, I have friends who are gay, yes, I have friends who are Christians of every conceivable denomination and leaning, yes I have friends who are Muslim, who are Hindu (like myself – although it may be said here that the word “Hindu” is actually a fabricated word, and doesn’t at all appear in the Vedic Scriptures; a more proper term for me/us would be “Vaishnava” – or devotee of God). So . . . thing is . . . I have a lot of friends, and I look forward to making more of them. Not to sound too air-heady, but we are talking, so let’s talk: I look forward to meeting my brothers and sisters of other planets and galaxies. Why should God’s “neighborhood” be confined to a tiny little blue speck (Earth)?

    So that’s a little about Raj, and I hope that some of you will consider the things I’ve said. Intelligent exchange of ideas is the spice of life – and if you’ll allow me an observation here – it’s something that should not be taken for granted in America or, for that matter, in any land where people are free to speak their minds and share their respective views. There are, believe me, diabolical forces on this planet of ours who most emphatically do NOT want a world where freedom of ideas is a reality, and all of us – Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists – should be vigilant in these times. Because these times are troubled ones, and the last thing all of us who are trying to live God-conscious lives need to do is to bicker with one another and attack one another. As to that “game” (Left-‘Behind), my take on it is simple and unswerving- and pardon my street “non-spiritual” vernacular: GAME MY ASS! I see “games” like this and slick television shows posing as “comedy” (ha! ha! See Bart hit Lisa! See Homer cheat on Marge!) as a subtle move to manipulate all of us into becoming aggressive and amoral. The “righties” will play games like “Left Behind”, and the “lefties” will watch “The Simpsons” (a study in facetiousness) and “Survival” (You, too, can become a Bitch Goddess!), and the elite will watch the show as t their goal to enslave all of us becomes slowly but surely a reality – at least those of us who haven’t killed one another off in the name of . . . you fill in the blanks.

    Lastly, it saddens me to hear people make statements like “. . . I’ll pray that you come over to The Lord’s side.”, or “I’ll pray that you’ll be saved.” Why not leave judgment up to God and not to us humans? I think we’ll find Him to be infinitely more compassionate and forgiving than are we.

  115. Mike V says:

    Wow, what a set of posts!

    Raj, very well said! Thank you for correcting an incorrect belief on my part (regarding “Hindu”, I did not know the proper term, again, thank you).

    As for the original topic of the posts, I have seen reviews of the ‘game’ in question, there seems to be a consensus of opinion that the ‘game’ mechanics were not high quality, ie the game play itself, and that the graphics were fairly low end. The subject matter did not seem to be well received and were perceived as spreading a message of intolerance and hatred. I think that the only thing that the American “Family” Association and I have (or WILL) ever agree on is that this ‘game’ should not be purchased or played. Of course, the AFA and I DISAGREE on WHY, with their opinion running towards things like ‘UNCHRISTIAN’ and ‘Blasphemy’ and mine running more toward ‘it looks like it will be a horrible piece of crap, why would I want to encourage those people to make more tripe of the same caliber?’

    As a reply to other posts, some I agree with, some I don’t. I do think that the source of a large part of the worlds problems can be traced back to one VERY complex cause: FEAR. Fear of the unknown, fear of the Other, just Fear.

    A few quotes that help me to deal with my fears, and not always successfully:

    “Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hatred. Hatred leads to Suffering…” Yoda, The Phantom Menace by George Lucas

    “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” Various characters, Dune series by Frank Herbert

    “For every man in fullness of time
    must descend to his death” Sigurd, Fafnismal (the Tale of Fafnir, part of the Saga of the Volsungs the basis for Wagner’s Opera The Ring)

    “Fearlessness is better than a faint heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and day of my death were fated long ago.” Skirnir, Skirnir’s Journey, AKA the Wooing of Gerda (part of the Elder Edda)

    I will leave you all at that and with good wishes for the coming year.
    Most of the time I can manage to overcome my

  116. Mike V says:

    Please disregard the sentence fragment at the end of my last post. Poor proof-reading on my part. I apologize.

  117. […] doesn’t condemn homosexuality, and you know better than that. Read any of the other comments on this article and you will see example after example of Christians (i.e. people following the Christian faith) […]

  118. Emily says:

    Ya, homosexual people are just wrong, they are in wrong doing in everything I am right up there with Joy. She knew what she was talking about and came out and said it strongly and correctly. It was said the best way possible Good Job Joy!!
    Scott, I am sorry but i personally think homosexuality is wropng even for men like you- even if it is a common dilemma!!


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